F40 engine on dyno | Page 5 | FerrariChat

F40 engine on dyno

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by zsnnf, Jul 10, 2005.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. cmparrenzo

    cmparrenzo F1 Rookie

    Mar 3, 2002
    2,686
    Kansas
    Full Name:
    Chris Parr
    I machined the housing.... it seems to work best and it got rid of the overboost, and yes it does sound like a grenade when the ECU shuts down!

    in so far as the brass valve, we actually GAINED horsepower and Torque when we took it off, but we also replaced the non-factory chips that were on the car, they were AWFUL!

    We first went back to factory chips then to Carobu...
     
  2. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    I am disappointed that nobody wants to talk.
     
  3. zsnnf

    zsnnf Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2003
    1,877
    I want to talk, I'm just not sure what I want to say, or how to say it :)
     
  4. cmparrenzo

    cmparrenzo F1 Rookie

    Mar 3, 2002
    2,686
    Kansas
    Full Name:
    Chris Parr
    ok lets talk this!

    My F40 has always run cooler than an eskimo, but on our latest run last weekend it was getting up to 210 in traffic, it was 100 out side but that has never happened before.

    I checked the fans and they are fine, changed oil, bled the front radiator and bled the thermostat housing.

    We ran a leak down and compression test, everything is fine.

    at idle in the shop I am at 205, oil is at 210. Tomorrow we put in a new thermostat and water wetter, any other suggestions?

    We suspect a bad thermostat obviously.....
     
  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    Here's a link to the thread if you haven't seen it. I'm sur ethe shop doing the work would be happy to talk ot you....but the problem with bore and stroke jobs is usually the heads. The added displacement only helps if you can increase the flow to match, otherwise you just get basically the same hp numbers at a lower rpm.

    The 4.0 guys are looking for 400, 500 with a blower. Mine blown qv is over 500 at 3.0. There are 600-800 hp TT308s out there.

    If you really want to make stupid hp, I would seriously look at a 360 or 430 engine as the base. they are bigger and the heads flow better. There is now a TT355 kit that will bolt-on and kicks out something like 750hp. Time marches on. A 430 engine should be a pretty easy swap, a turbos or a supercharger and 800-1000 is a reasonable to expect....personally though I'm pretty happy with 500 on a street car and am having trouble seeing how more would really make the car better.
     
  6. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    Make sure that you flush out the motor often. Most track events require you to remove the antifreeze and run straight water. Due to the mixture of metals in the Ferrari motor, even a short period of running will create a good deal of corrosion in the block and heads. This fouls the radiator quite easily. Have to flush throughly to remove. Also, the air bleed line that runs from the rad to the overflow tank leaks. The hose is old and needs replacing and the clamps are useless. Do a pressurized leakdown on the cooling system first. Also, the water pump seals like to leak. Never use water wetter, is is not compatible with the Mag parts in your cooling system. A sacrificial anode from you local Alfa mechanic helps as well. The Nascar guys use a special coolant mixture. Zerex makes a coolant additive that you add to water. It is not antifreeze but a corrosion inhibitor with no glycol. Improves heat transfer 25% and is racetrack approved. Can't remember the name but you can get it online. Not for use in freezing climates!
     
  7. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    made by Valvoline, its called Zerex racing super coolant. You can get it at Napa.
     
  8. zsnnf

    zsnnf Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2003
    1,877
    Well now that the motor is broken in I have a slight problem...
    Cruising at 80 mph in 5th gear, if you try to squeeze the throttle to accererate, before you get to 100mph, it breaks the tires lose!! Yes, It spins the rear tires @100MPH!! I couldn't believe it! So I did it again. Yep! The RPM and MPH go up and the back of the car raises and skates! DAMN!
    The first time it happened I downshifted to 4th. The RPM came up and I thought I missed on the clutch release. Then I thought, but the car sort of moved over in the rear too..... So basically the car can spin the tires in ALL 5 gears around 3500 to 4000 RPM by just feeding in more throttle. UNREAL!!

    Chris, where can I get a bigger rear wing? Did you get your over heating problem solved and Are you going to Monterey?

    Rick
     
  9. Ferrari Boy

    Ferrari Boy Formula 3

    Oct 25, 2003
    1,254
    Long Beach CA
    Full Name:
    David Couch
    oh man, i started to salivate. lol. well it sure seems like your enjoying it! I hope to witness this spinning of the tires one day, sounds awesome. I guess you will need some tire sponsers soon.
     
  10. cmparrenzo

    cmparrenzo F1 Rookie

    Mar 3, 2002
    2,686
    Kansas
    Full Name:
    Chris Parr
    Rick, I will be in Monterey on Wednesday, the transporter will also arrive on Wednesday. I think my overheat was never an issue, I was getting to 204, but it was 101 outside and that was in traffic. We did all the usual stuuf I think it is fine, I was just not used to that or 101!

    PM me I will give you my cell number...
     
  11. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    Anyone interested in an unused Tubi wing? Now that I have the LM GTE rear clip and wing, the Tubi is surplus to requirements. I'll be in Monterey with pictures.
     
  12. gareth t

    gareth t Karting

    Nov 10, 2004
    118
    south wales
    Full Name:
    gareth thwaite
    firstly i would like to say hi to everyone on here,,, great reading, i would like to say that im no expert in tuning of f40, but i have personally experience of tuning turbochargered machines!

    the only mistake i can see in this thread is regarding the standard ecus in the f40,,, The problem with these ecus is not many people in the world really know how to program them! they are a great ecu, the main this which many cant do it redefine the brake points, but this can be done int he right hands! (weber P8, fitted as standard also to the ford escort cosworth, 300 hp/litre isnt a problem using the stock ecu, remapped of cause)

    changing the ecu will not gain you peak power,, there is a few simple things that need to be met for peak power,,, right air/ful ratio mix,(so right injector duty cycle) right degree of ignition advance, and right amount of boost

    the p8 can run in closed loop control terms regarding boost pressure (basically looking after its self,, a set point is placed on its boost map, and the ecu with aim for this point, adjusting its PWM ((pulse width modulation output)) accordingly)

    the ignition look up table of an f40 would not be complecated, i can try and get hold of the look up table to show everyone!

    so where is this extra BHP coming from when using an aftermarket ecu like the motec (which i personally like) ???

    there would be a few advantages in using an eftermarket ecu (i love pi pectel ems) like clear fault finding, ease of engine calibration, correction factors are easy to gain entry too and i could go on

    thanks for listening
     
  13. zsnnf

    zsnnf Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2003
    1,877
    Thanks for the post Gareth,
    I agree with you. You won't make any more HP with a Motech because it is a Motech. You will have more HP and have better driveablity because the Motech is easier to program and it is a faster more modern ECU.
     
  14. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    Interesting observation on the ECU. However, I disagree with your conclusion. Both the Cosworth and the Ferrari ECU's are 1980's pieces. If you would like to sit at the dyno all day and make pulls, you may arive at a good compromise. Most of the these ECU's use two dimensional maps and rely on closed loop control when you go outside of their operating parameters. Lets say that you are doing a hill climb on a cool damp day. Your factory ECU will be somewhat confused. It measures a low air temp and high atmospheric pressure. It thinks that there is plenty of O2 so it calls for lots of fuel. As soon as it does you go outside your tuning parameters and have to depend on feedback from your O2 sensor. Feedback control is going to cost you power since it is not in real time. With a Motec, you can run the car in closed loop control and log the data. From that table you can instantly create a custom map for your current conditions. Motec maps are multi dimensional. Your map is 2D. Imagine your 2D map versus a multidimensional map as you raced up Pikes Peak. The Motec will buy you power by giving you the optimum tuning points. A burned chip is just someone elses opinion of how your car should run under a specific set of conditions, usually on a dyno. Remember, a dyno cannot simulate the actual conditions of driving. Motec can data log information that stock ecu's cannot. With a burned chip you are always tied to a tuner to change your operating parameters. With a Motec you have data, not opinions and the power to alter the settings. Have you seen the price on Ferrari chips? you could easily buy a Motec. However, the wiring is somewhat complicated but worth the effort. The Motec office is in SoCal. I think it would be worth a visit. Ill bet there is another 100 Hp left in that F40 if had as much work as it seems.
     
  15. zsnnf

    zsnnf Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2003
    1,877
    Maybe 25-50 HP. I doubt 100. I know the guys at JGM/Motech.
    So whats the story with the wing??

    Rick
     
  16. gareth t

    gareth t Karting

    Nov 10, 2004
    118
    south wales
    Full Name:
    gareth thwaite
    i was on about motec
    http://www.motec.com/

    just because it takes a little bit more thought (as you say its easyer with a aftermarket ecu/ems) doesnt mean it will gain more hp, i know the modern ecus are alot faster,, but this WILL NOT gain you any hp with correct engine calibration,

    the weber P8 is a 3d based mapping system (speed density/throttle angle)
    you should never run outside of its parameters full stop,, this is bad practice and should never be done (and there is no need to do this, as the only fucntion that would go about the standard range is manifold pressure, there is sesnors out there which can read 4.6bar map so i dont think this is a problem)

    how many ecus measure atmopheric pressure? (including motec's?) not many,, and not many people would knwo how to program in these correction factors! how many people are going to keep on re-calibrating there engine for conditions? again not many, and i dont think many F40 drivers would want to play about with them

    i sort of agree with you there,,, BUT this is where the lack of knowledge is coming in, the weber ecus can be programed live, out on the road, using emmulators, engine calibration in the same way you would with your motec!

    i personally love data logging, i do this in my own car every time i take it out (sad maybe) a tuner with the right equipment can datalog any car with any ecu, but again this is down to knowledge and equipment! how many f40 drivers would trust themself to write a new part too there map? isnt it best left in the hands of the tuners?


    sadly yes,, and TBH i think people are having there pants pulled down! but i can get aftermarket chips for a f40 for very good money! proven and this "chips" would of been proven and wrote in real would conditions
    you might be able to buy a motec for the money, but then you have to play with wiiing, maybe loosing value from the car as you are donig so!

    i do believe that in buying an aftermarket ecu for an f40, you are paying for your tuners lack of experience with stock ecus!!

    thanks again for listening too me, this is a great topic
     
  17. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    I was refering to the pressure that the MAP sensor reads influenced by atmo pressure. The marelli ecu is almost 20 year old technology at this point and I see no point in developing it on my own. The Motec is a wonderful unit and worthy of the time and money required to get it running. I thing that Carobu ought to continue development of their Motec conversion. If they can develop one that uses the stock wiring and sensors that would be even better. I elected to use the ADL dash, CDI-8, and the M880. I had to remove both ECU's and the wiring. I'm sure most of you guys will not want to do this. I really don't care what this does to the value of the car as I do not intend to sell it and have owned it now for over 8 years. I have had a lot of requests for the Tubi Wing. I paid 7.5K plus shipping and that is what I would sell it for.
     
  18. zsnnf

    zsnnf Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2003
    1,877
    Do you have a picture of the wing please?

    I think an adapter for the Motec to the stock ECU's would be a great idea.


    Rick
     
  19. gareth t

    gareth t Karting

    Nov 10, 2004
    118
    south wales
    Full Name:
    gareth thwaite
    im sure thats simple to someone with a f40 wiring diagram
     
  20. zsnnf

    zsnnf Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2003
    1,877
    Much easier than rewireing the entire engine harness for sure. The car uses mil spec connectors so why change them?
     
  21. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    There are no milspec connectors in an F40. The front and rear harness connectors are a close replica but not milspec. The rest is an odd mixture of weatherpack and others, while the wire and connectors are nothing to write home about. I feel that it is best not to reuse the stock wiring if you do not care about originality. I feel that there will always be plenty of stock original cars to represent the model.
     
  22. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    Rick, Tate, etc... The next time that you have an F40 motor on the dyno, let me know in advance. I could easily fab up a harness for a dyno run and I will supply the ecu et. al. I'll even pay the guys from MOTEC to tune the thing. From what I hear, the one high HP run was a somewhat uncontrolled but could be replicated with the MOTEC. It's really easy to build a wiring harness when the engine is out of the car and on a dyno. It's quite another story when the harness has to be fitted to the car, that's where the most time is involved.
     
  23. zsnnf

    zsnnf Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2003
    1,877

    Why would you NOT want to just build an adaptor harness the uses the stock harness that is on the engine? The stock ECU's are obviously real easy to get to....
     
  24. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    Well, in order to not destroy the factory wiring harness, you would have to obtain the proper connector. This means either finding the correct mating part, or removing them from a defective ECU. Not an easy situation in either case. The other alternative is to remove the connector(cut it off) and resplice it. It can be done, but it is time consuming. Anyone know where we can get the connectors? You can also just run another harness alongside the factory one. A little messy but probably the least complicated solution.
     
  25. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    Rick, the Tubi wing that I have is the same one that is on Chris's car. I'll try to get a picture later but have been rea busy lately. It is new in unused condition.
     

Share This Page