F40 prices sinking fast? Asking below $499k and no takers

I was glad to read this. Sound and balanced opinions, and with a connection to reality. That dimension is always an advantage *L* !

Regards!

 

Joe,
Great post and it was a great read, also to 410SA your point is very valid. Even in good times there were big swings between a "good" car and a "bad" car simply quoting these prices could have shown a huge % change in the market, but it wasn't comparing apples to apples.
Erik

 

You going to be bidding on the Black one? Looks like a good track car especially with the 85K in mods. It will be interesting to see where it trades.

 

Erik

The F 40 that traded for 1.5MM at the top is the same car that traded for 300/325 years later. It was never driven.

Things that happened once can happen again. Anyone who states that it's impossible to happen again is being silly.

Cheers

 

Jim: Two things to note.

1. Nobody here has said that what happened in 1990 is "impossible" to happen again.
2. Because it happened once does not mean it will follow the exact same scenario again.

 

1. "The F40 will always have buyers, and this will support the prices as well"

2. True.

As I've said, we shall see.

It's funny the F 40 I mentioned is once again looking for a buyer. Still driven only 317 miles per year on average. A bit sad that.

 

There have been some really good points made here as well as some rubbish being said. The way that I personally see things going in the classic car market I think is totally different to what the contemporary car market is doing. I would call myself a bear and would prefer prices generally to come down.

I think that for many classic cars the prices have crept up substantially without really understanding the justification in that(apart from the fact that people are willing to pay the money). I think that models for example such as the Ferrari 246, daytona, and the original porsche speedster and 73 RS have increased more than rarity value, or actual driving experience can justify and so I think that those cars will come down a lot harder. When you now get a (good)daytona, and RS asking about the same money as an F40 in todays market, well it just doesnt make any sense. Either one, is overpriced or the other one is underpriced. You decide.

In my mind I just cannot say that the F40 is overpriced for what you're getting. I mean it is selling only for just over 30% in ABSOLUTE terms what it was going for nearly 20 years ago!. In many peoples minds it is the definitive supercar ever. I wont even dwell on measuring the relative terms that AL70 mentioned before(BTW if anyone is interested in looking at relative values over the years then check out this link- http://www.measuringworth.com/index.html). So although yes there will be maybe some softening and maybe longer periods that the car takes in order for it to sell, I don't expect the F40 to come down more than say 10-15%. Of course if something catastophic does happen then run for cover and buy GOLD!
That's my 2 cents at least.

 

Mr. G,
My quote just is in reference to good and bad car swings in one market track abused vs concours. Not from a market over a period of time ie. 80's to early 90's. just to clarify. Also your right anything can happen again.
Erik

 

Agree but within limits. The 2MM 4 Cam was very nice but even if you took an average 4 Cam sale at RM August and compare it to an average 4 Cam RM London sale 3 months later you'll notice a big difference apples to apples.

As Marcel (Someone who is directly involved with selling collectable Ferrari's) said, the market has changed big time.

Best

 

correct


i'd like to add the recent value increase we have seen is VERY different from what we had in 89 (both in selection of cars and in the % of increase !) and the reason values are down are also VERY different from 89

to me to put 90 and 2008 as the same thing makes very little sense (i am not sayng it is impossible to see F40s going for 250-300k$ in the near future with this)

as for the 180k$ F40 i think i will wait for it to come but i am not really confident (neither i will be happy to see it since economy will be ....ugly)

 

Lets remember that this car is an F40 that has been modified, and painted in a non-original color. Thats what it is. What it is not, is representative of a good standard unmodified F40. Therefore to me, whatever it trades for is no indication of the value of a good standard unmodified car.

Most F40 buyers are looking for a car they can also use on the street (excepting the buyer of a genuine F40LM/GT/GTE). To them, this car is less than desirable, especially if it is not street legal, unless of course their criteria is: "how can I get my hands on the cheapest possible F40", something that comes before the disappointing experience of what a less-than-perfect F40 costs to rectify. As I know it to be, such F40s can be like the proverbial Pelican - they come with big bills!

This car begs the following questions which I would ask on behalf of my buyer:

1. What exactly was done that cost $85k? Upgrades alone, or did the engine have to be rebuilt and the car repainted within that cost??
2. Were all the original components saved and available with the car??
3. How much will it cost to simply put this car back to stock configuration??
4. What is the engine's maintenance & life history??
5. Is all of the above worth the hassle or should my client simply spring for a good unmodified car??

And the most important question:

6. Does anyone here talking about this car have first-hand knowledge of it?

Without knowing the answers to all the questions Ive posed above, you cant really have an intelligent values discussion about this car. Perhaps some posting here can answer my questions.


.

 

Yes Ross does and has talked about it here. Another poster here said at 200K euro he'd buy an F 40 simply for track use and as Ross investigated this car and was willing to buy it if it could be street registered in Switzerland, which it couldn't, I assume he thought it was worth buying.

Now it's going to be auctioned for a second time and I was simply wondering the poster was going to bid. While it may not go for 200K euro it may go for not a lot more and assuming the 85K worth of modifications were done well, and that can be checked out as Ross mentioned the shop who did them, it may be a good buy for someone looking for a track F 40.

No More. No Less.

Cars can be bought at auction that are good cars and good buys. I've bought several I'm very happy with. Of course you have to check them out but that can be done.

Hey maybe it will go for a lot more but if you're looking for a Track F 40 it's worth a try. You never know.

 

Its completely fair to opine on what an actual sale result means in the market, and interpret it how we feel, correctly or otherwise. We all know by how much actual sale numbers have changed - thats obvious published information.

But the constant pure speculation of dire circumstances in the unforeseeable future is uncalled for, only serves to muddy the waters and foster confusion in the market, is completely meaningless to anyone astute, and just gets old after a while. I urge caution there.

Lets talk more about what is, what we know, what is happening, what has happened, etc, and less of what might happen.

 

No I don't think Ross has addressed any of the questions Ive raised specifically. There are 6 of them I have. Care to chime in Ross??

 

link of this unfamous nero car?

 

In post 269 Ross has spoken in very generic terms about the car, nothing that answers any of my questions. I would be interested to learn if he has inspected & driven the car, and has possession of all the cars records from day one. If he has, he will be in a position to evaluate it.

By the way a car coming back to auction a second time without having had a true "home" in between is never a good sign, of which I could elaborate ad nauseum...

 

www.bonhams.com

 

interesting car...but purists would run away from it! (its selling value won't tell us anything on current market for pristine collector F40s imo)

 

Or what Joe? You gonna send me to my room?

 

Side question. In Europe don't people tend to use Ferrari's more and worry about
Keeping them pristine less?

 

Well I, for one, like hearing the speculation. Both for, and against, based on individual members' experiences. Just the same as if I was interested in any other market. Half of what we hear in the news these days is speculation of some sort, anyway. If anybody feels like "the F40 market" or collective opinion is being damaged by what others have to say, then I guess that is your prerogative. But, all the same, I'm enjoying hearing what everybody has to say and factoring the information accordingly.

 

wow, i leave for a couple days and you guys get into a lather...

re what i know about the black f40....not enough. joe, your questions will certainly be my guide for the future.

what i do know is that the car has been owned by the same guy who bought it at last years gstaad auction, and he has not driven it, nor been able to register it in switzerland. the reason for this has been surmised by me, and intimated by one of my dealer friends, because it has been modified outside of ferrari it is now considered a race car and therefore not easily registered for the street in switzerland.
what is telling to me is that the dealer who offered it to me recently is NOT a normal ferrari dealer in switzerland - and the normal ferrari guys (modena and carugati), did not want to touch it.
the original engine (with 3200km on it) and dash are said to be available with the car. nothing is said about the other parts that have been replaced.

the parts that are said to have cost the 85k are the LM spec 3.6 ltr engine, exhaust, suspension, seats, roll cage, adjustable spoilers front and rear, digital dash with racing racing add-ons. this sounds plausible.

the one worrying thing that was rumored amongst those of us looking at it last year, was that it had been tracked and wrecked, and was then transformed to LM spec during rehabilitation. i could not find anybody who could substantiate this rumor, just that they had heard it too.

in any case i did not bid on it since i could not get the answers at that time, and since then have not been able to find out much more, other than what i told you above.

i would agree with those of you saying that this car cannot easily be compared with a purely stock, non tracked, low mileage, original color car. BUT that may not matter that much in the next year. a market is always made up of a high and a low. in this example, the low can be the black car, and the high can be the perfect original. the two are not the same for sure, but the great majority of available cars will fall somewhere in the middle. therefore, if the low gets lower, and the high just stays the same (note that i am not even saying that it will drop), then the mean will drop. joe and 410 are probably right that the pico bello examples will cling to the highwater mark more securely, but in the same vein, the tracked cars with more than 20k miles will definetely be dragged down by the potential drop in price of the black car.
now, what i am hoping for is that the middle of the road cars, the ones with more miles than 10k, maybe a couple track days, better brakes, maybe a tubi...will remain at the mean, and hence cheaper than they were 6 months ago.

we'll see.

 

true

unfortunatly this car is not registred so you cannot drive it on the road as it is, but only track (and most would like to drive on the road sometimes...)
more: swiss papers to Italy, even cancelled here!, are a pain in the a.. for everything younger than 20 years (as regitry it in Italy is virtually impossible outside EU and younger than 20 even with valid papers...cancelled:good luck! )
from Swiss to Italy you will also pay VAT or IVA (20%)

it is interesting but 100% honestly: i am sure a road registred average to good unmodified F40 would bring more money than this one
and a EU papers cars would be my first choice

i would pay less myself for this black car

 

Not likely. Lets just allow ourselves to be more optimistic. Its not all bad. I believe what we are going though is necessary for a better future. Meanwhile I for one promise to remain objective...


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I figured...