F40 prices sinking fast? Asking below $499k and no takers | Page 22 | FerrariChat

F40 prices sinking fast? Asking below $499k and no takers

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by mjw599, Nov 12, 2008.

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  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    May 23, 2006
    57,288
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    The highest price an F40 has sold for in the recent run-up was $735k, as sold via SVAG in late 2007. The values of 20 years ago are totally irrelevant to today's numbers.

    F40 asking prices have not dropped 20% in 3 months. In fact asking prices haven't changed much, if at all. One car sitting in Houston with 11,780 miles on the clock that needs a major service whose owner is particularly motivated does not mean that in general there has been a "20% drop in asking prices". In fact, anyone who really knows the F40 market, and operates within it, will know that it is pretty much at a standstill with sellers refusing to release the death-grip they have on their cars. They are holding, and its very hard to buy an F40 for the numbers that buyers want to see.
     
  2. tony2ta

    tony2ta Formula Junior

    Aug 8, 2004
    924
    NorCal
    Full Name:
    Tony
    #527 tony2ta, Feb 7, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2009
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Keep in mind the 429K includes buyers fee so the hammer was less and the seller had to pay a fee to the Auction Co. as well.

    Your Friends two cars are additional proof that the asking price of F 40's from the car that started this thread to these two has dropped 20% in three months.

    Maybe Art and your friend should try to get together on the 92. If they work directly they'll save Broker/Auction fees and will be closer to start with. If they each adjust a bit from there they may find common ground.

    Best
     
  4. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Perhaps its also worth disclosing to the community that the '92 F40 93139 that sold at RM for $429k is renowned as an accident-damaged car which was repaired. Parties bidding (including one of my clients) knew this going in, and expected to get the car cheaply.
     
  5. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    May 23, 2006
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    #530 joe sackey, Feb 7, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2009
    Tony2ta:

    Perhaps you can augment the information you've provided with specific detail that will make your statement meaningful. For all intents & purposes, the '91 Euro car is redundant for the USA so a USA road car buyer (which this thread is based on) will have no interest there.

    Which brings me to the 1992 car which you claim your freind has available for "little less than $400k":

    What is the chassis number?
    How many miles does it have?
    What condition is it in?
    Does it have accident history?
    Has it had post-production paintwork?

    Please share all the above, and then potential buyers (who are right here reading this, many of them choosing to be lurkers) can assess the car's true value.

    USA F40s that are available currently (some privately) are:
    93103, 93065, 91912, 90059, 89888, 88991, 87511, and 86439. The average asking number is actually $528k. The asking prices are posted on Du Pont Registry, Anamera and Classic Driver as of todays date. I left out of this study 86056 on purpose, because of its 'special' price, as well as several cars whose information I know not.

    True you can buy any F40 for a lot less than ask. But the suggestion that "F40 asking prices have dropped 20% in 3 months" is nonsense. Doing a review of what asking prices where at the beginning of this thread, they are exactly the same. Actual sales on the other hand have indeed recorded a drop of about 10 - 20% on last year's values. Even in the days when prices were escalating, and some cars were selling over $600k, I knew of some F40s that were picked up cheaply for less than $400k (take my word on that one). But there was a reason for it - it was simply because they had needs or left something to be desired in some regard (poor condition, accident history, repainted, high miles, extensive track activity, no maintenance, no records/books/tools etc). My point is, good low-mileage cars will never be cheap, and I suspect that the list price of 19-18 years ago will be a bottom for those truly desirable cars.

    I don't think most people care that prices have softened. From a personal point of view its a great buyer's market and there are more people looking than there are truly good cars that also have sellers willing to reduce price. Buyers feel they should be rewarded for being in what they perceive to be a buyers market and often give low offers. Additionally buyers are passing on most cars out there in the quest for a perfect car. Sellers are being remarkably firm on how much they reduce their price, and consequently anyone in the market knows we have somewhat of a stalemate. Its unfortunate though that some people who are in fact not actively involved in the F40 market on a day-to-day basis feel the need to blatantly distort the picture for the uninformed. But thats the beauty of a forum: received wisdom is shared and soon the uninformed are informed, and the distorted picture is back in focus!
     
  6. tony2ta

    tony2ta Formula Junior

    Aug 8, 2004
    924
    NorCal
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Joe,

    The 92 US car is located in Canada, it has 15k miles. All services are up to date, no accident, no paintwork. He offered to purchase my Vector W8 and selling his F40 to me.

    Tony
     
  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the info Tony.

    15,000 miles. That explains why you can buy it for the price you are suggesting. Mileage-sensitive USA F40 prospective customers will consider that to be a high-mileage car - Im not saying it should be that way, but thats how it is. If it had 1,500 miles, the price would be much different, rest assured.

    Lets compare that car you are speaking of with chassis number 93065, also a 1992 USA F40, also in Canada. This one has 7,362 miles traveled so far. It is the 202nd USA F40 built, so its just 9 cars from the end of production. By comparison, he asks $550,000 as of today.
    http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/32722/index.html?no_cache=1&bet=63
    I am sure the car can be bought for less. But thats what he asks.

    Think ask is unrelated to what sellers are willing to let a car go for? Just today, a buyer makes an offer of $410k for one well-maintained & immaculate 6,200-mile USA F40 whose seller has indicated that circa $465k is the asking number that will also ring the bell, all things carefully considered. My client didn't even counter the offer made, stating that even if full price were offered he would think before letting this automotive icon go. End of negotiation. Point is, it turns out in this case ask and sale number are the same thing.

    The owner of the F40 (who I hope will say something here...) has multiple other Ferraris and a handful of other Supercars. What can he replace the F40 with? What is different about the market this time is that many people who have the cars are affluent and don't NEED to do anything.

    I hope I have given a feel for whats going on in the F40 market as presented by someone who is involved in it directly on a daily basis, and not from an armchair far removed...
     
  8. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #533 Napolis, Feb 8, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2009
    If you want to sell your Vector that's probably the way to go assuming that he gives you a price that you're happy with. There's also the potential tax saving on the trade portion of the deal. It's really sad how little milage these cars have. Less than 1000 per year. The one asking under 400k in the US only has 12K miles. I bought a Ford that put on over 3200 miles in one day. Different Strokes.

    How does your Vector Drive? Is is sorted?

    Best
     
  9. DM1

    DM1 Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2006
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    DM
    Jim

    That Ford must have been driven REAL fast (133.33 MPH) for 24 HRS straight in order to be able to go the distance of 3200 miles in ONE day.

    Best
     
  10. TcpSec

    TcpSec Formula Junior

    Feb 8, 2004
    453
    LA, USA
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    Zeno S Paradox
    Not very unusual for cars to do that at LeMans. :)
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    #536 Napolis, Feb 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  12. TcpSec

    TcpSec Formula Junior

    Feb 8, 2004
    453
    LA, USA
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    Zeno S Paradox
    Only feel you have given is that f40's are worth buying when you are involved. We got it! :)

    What you don't get it is that f40's were selling for around $300k before the RE boom. The basic market economics during those day were are actually better than what they are today. f40 values will go dow, and no amount of hype will stop that. Your thesis about sellers deathgrip is false. They are hanging on because nobody likes to take a loss, but they will eventually understand. Have you not seen that happen right here on fchat?

    Inflation is up, wages are down. It is hard to find any investment that gives a decent return (except for Madoff :)), and people, rich or poor, are getting rid of assets that bleed money. Boats, watches, vacation homes, etc. (AND f40s) all are heading in the same direction. Hope that clears it up for you. Good times ahead for real collectors!
     
  13. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Actually it did that in 23 hours as it spent one hour in the pits.
     
  14. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    #539 Napolis, Feb 8, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2009
    You got it. Asking prices haven't dropped 20% in three months because Joe says so even though those with eyes can read this thread, see the date and the price of the car that started this thread and then read the date and price of an
    F40 that Joe is offering for sale and do the math.

    "Margaret @ Joe Sackey Classics to Undisclosed-re.
    show details Feb 4 (3 days ago) Reply

    This 1991 Ferrari F40 is completely original, unmodified, and has a Tubi sport exhaust fitted.

    The 76th of 211 USA cars built.

    11,760 miles.

    Chassis no. ZFFMN34A8L0087031, assembly no. 03992.

    This F40 has resided in a premier private USA collection.

    A very special offer at $395,000 USD, plus commission.

    For additional details please contact Joe at [email protected]

    www.joesackey.com"
     
  15. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
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    Art
    Problem is with size 14 feet, I don't fit in one. Tried Mike Grants, and had an awful time getting into it, let alone driving it. Nope, if the prices on 275s drop, and I can convince the wife, that's what I'm getting. Probably won't be able to get the Citation if I do that though.

    Art
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    If you get the Citation I want a ride! Fri., Sat. dinner this August?
     
  17. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    Unfortunately California doesn't follow that one.
     
  18. johnvwatts

    johnvwatts Formula Junior

    Jul 7, 2007
    522
    England
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    John v watts
    Just out of interest F40 prices in England have risen 20% in the last two months! Mainly due to Sterling falling against the Euro. Mainland Europe F40's sell generlly in the 275-325 euro range (see www.mobile.de or www.classicdriver.com) . As the £ and the euro have reached near parity , all English F40 owners have jacked their prices up to mainland Europe values.

    So there we have it - England land of the rising price F40.
     
  19. sir-t

    sir-t Karting

    Sep 24, 2006
    175
    D/A/CH
    Don't judge the market on mobile.de prices. 5 dealers putting 325k offers up on the internet doesn't mean that prices are rising.
     
  20. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    3,565
    Newport Beach, CA
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    Jeffrey
    What's interesting to me is that I have yet to see a clean, no story, U.S. F40 sell for anything significantly less than $500k. Sure ... all the naysayers can point out isolated cars that are selling for "below market" prices but conveniently neglect to indicate that they are either in Canada, have 15k miles, sustained damage, been repainted, or all of the above. CLEAN NO STORY LOW MILEAGE F40s are not $400k cars. End of story. Someone show me a 5k mile, no story, U.S. model F40 that has recently sold for $450k or less. I'll stand corrected if there is such a car. Furthermore I happen to personally know a handful of F40 owners and not a single one of them has listed their cars for sale.

    Economic pressure as it may be has affected many but so far most of the Ferrari supercars seem to be holding their values well. I've been waiting for the $800,000 Enzo and have yet to see it. I seem to recall a couple being for sale sub-$1 million during the peak of economic times and here we are well into a recession and Enzo prices seem higher than ever! Go figure!
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #546 Napolis, Feb 9, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2009
    Joe

    Your wife sent this offering in an email directly to me on behalf of you. This email/offering speaks for itself. My statement that the asking prices of F40's has fallen 20% in three months as measured by the asking price of the car that started this thread on the date posted vs the asking price of the car and the date in the email offering that your wife sent directly to me speaks for itself. Your threat to me stating things that are untrue: "sent specifically from my wife to an undisclosed recipient who is not you" also speaks for itself. Your wife sent this email offering DIRECTLY to me EXACTLY as posted. SHE, not me, elected not to disclose the recipients of your email offering in the header. I have not edited her email in any way. Your statement is not true.


    Jim:

    The next time you post a private communication on a public forum, sent specifically from my wife to an undisclosed recipient who is not you, you'll be hearing my attorneys.

    Dont be such a punk.

    Joe
     
  22. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    Art
    Which ever one is better for you. Let me know, since it's hard to get reservations. How about Eastwood's for dinner? Let me know.

    Art
     
  23. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks Jim.
     
  24. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    Art
    Joe:

    If indeed your wife sent this to Jim (I've known Jim for a few years, and have never seen him make an untrue statement, so I must take his comment that it was sent to him from her as true), I can't for the life of me understand how you could bring any kind of viable action against him. If the claim is defamation, the content comes directly from your wife. Are you contending she made untrue statements? If you contend that the communication was private, did it contain a notation of that claim? Right of privacy suits not involving use of a name and or likeness for commercial purposes are very, very difficult. If you are contending interference with prospective economic advantage, I can't see any damages or duty. As your lawyers will probably tell you, most jurisdictions have rules against suits without a legal basis. Rule 11 is the Federal Rule, California copied it in it's California code of civil procedure, section 128.7. Both provide for substantial penalties when one brings an action that is unfounded. I would hope that would not occur here, but perhaps you may have some sort of explanation of your threat that makes legal sense.

    Art
     
  25. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim: I am told the e-mail was definitely NOT supposed to be sent to you. If it was, it was in error, and I apologize for my remarks. You will not be getting such an e-mail in the future.
     

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