F430 F1 - can engine be hand cranked ? | FerrariChat

F430 F1 - can engine be hand cranked ?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by PaulCr, Jun 1, 2021.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. PaulCr

    PaulCr Rookie

    Jan 15, 2018
    14
    Geneva, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Paul Cruikshank
    I'm in the middle of a starting issue on my F430 F1 2008 24kkm. When starting about 3 weeks ago, i'm getting a mechanical noise from the starter, but no rotation - battery was new about 2 months ago. Tried with a booster on terminals behind seat - no change. Removed starter to check solenoid copper terminals - quite pitted - so I've go new ones on order.
    Decided to check to see if I could rotate the crankshaft at the 36 mm nut on the end pulley - I can't rotate it in the CCW direction - I can go backwards without difficulty, but didn't go more than 45 degrees - then return in the CCW but becomes solid (spanner is about 18 inches lever arm, and I kept constant pressure to allow the pistons to depressurise but no movement) - I don't think this is normal? I reconnected the battery and checked system is in neutral but no change.
    Next step can be to remove spark plugs....
    Thanks for any guidance. Cheers, Paul
     
  2. voicey

    voicey Formula 3

    Jul 29, 2009
    1,190
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Aldous Voice
    You should be able to crank the engine clockwise, even with the plugs in. The last 430 I had in which wouldn't crank had a seized a/c pulley which smoked the aux belt, jamming it up.
     
  3. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,126
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Yes, you should be able to hand turn a 430 rather easily. If it goes for some rotation and then stops, that is an issue. It is possible that you don't have a starter problem at all. Taking the plugs out is step one. Hope it is something easy like a flooded cylinder.
     
    V4NG0 and 2NA like this.
  4. PaulCr

    PaulCr Rookie

    Jan 15, 2018
    14
    Geneva, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Paul Cruikshank
    Thanks for the feedback guys. The car still has the origin exhaust manifolds, and I understand metal parts can be drawn into the cylinders when they fail - however its difficult to imagine to fully block the rotation because pieces would only be small to go through the valves (previous car use was about 7 days before and no symptoms of an engine issue - normal temp, oil pressure, tickover) No sign of water in the oil either. Can I do any damage to rotate the engine backwards ? ie - clockwise when looking at the flywheel from gearbox - have heard stories that the timing chain tensioner doesn't like that).
     
  5. PaulCr

    PaulCr Rookie

    Jan 15, 2018
    14
    Geneva, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Paul Cruikshank
    Wade, your suggestion about a flooded cylinder. Is it possible that the car runs fine then at shut off the cylinder fills with coolant due to a blown head gasket ? Or is an alternative petrol due to some other type of fuel injection anomaly ?
     
  6. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,869
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    #6 raemin, Jun 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
    leaking injector, head gasket failure... : you can make endless speculations. If I where in this situation I would remove the plug and see for myself if the cylinder is flooded. Some cheap endoscope/ borescope camera could also help detecting bent valves or physical damage.

    We had a damaged 456 near Geneva some years ago, the car was brought to Franck Bastard who did a great job, including the camera inspection. He is on the French side 5 minutes from Geneva (Fb Motors, 74490 SAINT JEOIRE). Just mentioning it because at some point we have to seek professional advice and some diagnostics cannot be easily performed over the internet.
     
  7. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,662
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Remove plugs, Put gearbox in Neutral, turn the crank over by hand in the CW direction. It should move.
     
    2NA likes this.
  8. PaulCr

    PaulCr Rookie

    Jan 15, 2018
    14
    Geneva, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Paul Cruikshank
    Found oil on spark plug of cylinder 2, and oil is visible in the cylinder. Crankshaft now rotates with spanner on crankshaft. The max level of the oil remains below the spark plug thread with piston at TDC. I'm assuming a blown head gasket.
    I'm thinking that next step is reinstall the starter, connect it to external battery and rotate the engine with the plug out with something to catch the oil spray. New spark plug. Start-up briefly to clear the engine. Get the cheque book ready :((
    Are blown head gaskets common for this engine ? I don't push it so hard and always wait to get to temperature before taking revs up.
     
  9. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 25, 2019
    1,742
    Memphis, TN
    Full Name:
    John
    I think the worst thing you could do is start it up.
     
    tazz99 likes this.
  10. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,680
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    I would think a leak down test would make sense

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  11. 32 Ford

    32 Ford Karting

    Jan 31, 2021
    172
    vancouver
    Full Name:
    Mike McGowan
    If you can clearly see excessive oil in the cylinder I wouldn't recommend you try to "clear it up". Some thorough diagnosis would be a wiser choice in my opinion.
     
  12. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    1,070
    This is common with overfilled engine oil. The piston that is at the very bottom of the stroke will allow the engine oil by the rings and on top of the piston while it sits. This is because the oil will equalize between the dry sump and the engine oil pan. and when you crank it it will hydro lock. I have never seen it do damage other then smoke really bad on start up. I suspect once you start it and clear out the oil you will find the engine is overfilled with oil.
    You may also need to check the intake manifold for oil if it migrated through the PCV system.
     
    Qavion likes this.
  13. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,126
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Good news is that it is not a blown head gasket. Oil won't fill the cylinder from a blown head gasket. I would drain the oil from the engine and tank. Put 8 qts of oil in the tank. Keep the spark plugs out of it and spin it over, paper towels in the plug hole will catch some of what comes out although they will get blown away if you stuff them in tight, just try and cover the hole to stop anything from blowing all over. Then put the plugs in it and fire it up. Of the two oil locked engines I have encountered in my shop, both were over filled and the drain and refill fixed them. Once it is running you can bring the oil level to the correct level.
     
    tazz99 and Qavion like this.
  14. PaulCr

    PaulCr Rookie

    Jan 15, 2018
    14
    Geneva, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Paul Cruikshank
    Thanks again guys - there is some evidence that overfill or transport could be the cause. The car was serviced at Ferrari Manchester in January, then it was shipped to Switzerland on a transport truck with the car inclined (nose down or up I can't remember). Still puzzling me is that I used the car in March & April after the delivery, and it wasn't until the 3rd start I had the problem. I just got some separate advice to check the state of the breather system to see if any oil there.
     
  15. PaulCr

    PaulCr Rookie

    Jan 15, 2018
    14
    Geneva, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Paul Cruikshank
    I drained the oil and collected 10.5 litres - refilled with 8 litres. Rotated engine with plugs out using external battery connected to starter. Reinstalled plugs and checked rotation with spanner on crankshaft - all ok. Started engine - huge quantity of smoke (neighbours thought the house was on fire) that eventually cleared after few minutes. Allowed engine to sit for 2 days, then rechecked manual rotation with spanner - ok. Restarted, no smoke, and got engine to temperature - needed to add 1 litre oil to get to minimum mark on dipstick. Allowed engine to sit for 3 days, then rechecked manual rotation with spanner - ok. Restarted no smoke. So doesn't seem to have been heavy overfill (btw what's the oil capacity between min and max on dipstick?) more likely due to tilting during transport - but still don't have an explanation how oil migrated to the cylinder after its first use at full operating temperature (eg excessive oil sitting in cam casing then migrating down valve stem to open cylinder ? or is 0.5 to l litre overfill enough to submerge the piston in the crankcase).
     
  16. PaulCr

    PaulCr Rookie

    Jan 15, 2018
    14
    Geneva, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Paul Cruikshank
    Forgot to mention I disassembled the breather tubes, air boxes and inlet manifold - presence of oil but not excessive. Apart from oil in the folds of the large rubber bellows, there wasn't much at the 8 trumpet ends of the inlet manifold. Cleaned up any oil and reassembled
     

Share This Page