430 - F430 F1 - gear whine at cruising speed when not under load | FerrariChat

430 F430 F1 - gear whine at cruising speed when not under load

Discussion in '360/430' started by lowform, Aug 18, 2021.

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  1. lowform

    lowform Karting

    Feb 25, 2021
    87
    Peoria, AZ
    Full Name:
    Aaron
    Hello friends,

    I am a new owner of an 08 F430 with the F1 transmission and 17,000 miles. I recently took the car on a little road trip and noticed a noise that sounds like gear whine. It only happens when I am driving at a steady speed, neither accelerating or decelerating. Only when the engine is not under load. It is not very loud, but noticeable. Is this a normal F430 noise or is it something I should be concerned with? I appreciate any feedback.

    Thank you,
    Aaron
     
  2. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2018
    5,090
    Houston
    Full Name:
    One4torque
    Check for worn engine mounts and trans mount. Could be engine trans vibes going through frame.
     
    lowform likes this.
  3. Extreme1

    Extreme1 Formula 3

    Jun 27, 2017
    1,212
    Santa Clarita, CA
    I have a 2009 with 14,000 on it and I haven’t noticed any whine sound.
    It’s easy enough to check the gearbox oil level and color. Maybe pull the filter screen to make sure it’s clear too.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
    lowform likes this.
  4. AandSC

    AandSC Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2016
    757
    Jax, FL
    Full Name:
    Allen
    My gearbox whine went away after a gearbox oil and filter change. The filter was pretty clogged with the white gasket material. 08 with 24K miles. I put in Redline 75W/90NS. Super quiet now.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  5. Gillis Haasnoot

    Gillis Haasnoot Karting

    Feb 4, 2020
    104
    Leiden, Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Gillis Haasnoot
    Is it in all gears or in just one?
    Does pitch go up with refs? Does it whine in neutral with some refs? Does it whine when driving and manually put it in manual?
    Is it a mechanical whine sound or more a windy one?
     
    lowform likes this.
  6. lowform

    lowform Karting

    Feb 25, 2021
    87
    Peoria, AZ
    Full Name:
    Aaron
    Thank you all for the replies. To add to my comment, this 'sounds' like a gear whine. It could possibly be something else...just not sure. This noise does not go up or down because it only happens when the car is not under and load. The second I accelerate or decelerate (even the slightest bit) it goes away. I have new motor mounts, clutch, throwout bearing etc. Thx again. Please keep the comments coming.
     
  7. Extreme1

    Extreme1 Formula 3

    Jun 27, 2017
    1,212
    Santa Clarita, CA
    It will take about 1 hour and $50 to drain and replace the gearbox oil. Pull the filter screen while your at it. That would be my first step. I’ll walk you thru it if you need help doing it yourself.

    My car had 13,000 on it when I bought it and my filter screen looked like the one in the other posters picture. It must have never been removed and cleaned before.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  8. lowform

    lowform Karting

    Feb 25, 2021
    87
    Peoria, AZ
    Full Name:
    Aaron
    Thank you sir. I just watched the Normal Guy Supercar video...looks very straight forward. I'll give it a try.
     
  9. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

    Feb 5, 2014
    2,625
    England
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Are you sure that it isn't a wheel bearing and the sound of the engine isn't masking it during accel and decel?
     
    PKIM likes this.
  10. Snapshift

    Snapshift Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 31, 2020
    715
    Centralia IL
    Full Name:
    Lyle D. Pahnke
    My '05 430 has this whine and has had it since I bought it. I changed gear oil and filter and it still does it at exactly 80 mph on the speedo in 6th. I quit worrying about it. There were others that posted that this was sort of the norm for the early F1's.

    BTW does anyone notice if the calibration is good on the speedo? I was passing one of those radar speed signs at indicated 70mph and the radar said 75 on the flashback. I am going to try and calibrate it with GPS tracking and see what i get.
     
    catdog likes this.
  11. F430Fever

    F430Fever Rookie

    Aug 1, 2021
    1
    Titusville, FL
    Full Name:
    Nathan Buckland
    As Snapshift said, my ‘05 430 with 12k miles and new oil makes a slight wine as described by others but goes away under load. I’m not worried about it and had it inspected by a Ferrari tech. As long as you have fresh fluid and not experiencing anything out of ordinary driving, don’t let it bother you. Enjoy!
     
    Snapshift likes this.
  12. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,285
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Your description fits what my '05 does since it was new. My car is a manual, so it is not related to F1 mechanism. It has not gotten louder over time.

    Dave
     
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  13. ItalGerBrit

    ItalGerBrit Formula Junior

    Mar 15, 2016
    804
    S La
    Seems like all are off by roughly 8 to 10%.
     
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  14. Snapshift

    Snapshift Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 31, 2020
    715
    Centralia IL
    Full Name:
    Lyle D. Pahnke

    I have been thinking about this gear whine. My indi who races his cars and knows a lot about this thinks we might add a bit of Lucas oil friction modifier that you may have seen in auto parts store demos that climbs up the gears while turning a crank might help. I don't see what it can hurt. I have changed the gear oil to Royal purple and use the Scuding Swiss SEB E-Diff switch to disable it in normal driving modes. Any thoughts on this before I try it? Thnaks
     
  15. catdog

    catdog Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2010
    250
    Had that problem too and it's really in 6th gear and less so in 5th gear at around 80 mph, at steady cruise or when gently backing off throttle.

    Had transmission oil changed twice and slight improvement.

    I just used Tribotex for manual transmission (2 tubes) in the transmission oil and drive car for 60 miles, noise seeems more faint. Will report in a couple of weeks if still there or better/worse. I am a huge fan of tribotex (engine formula) have used it in many of my cars with excellent results. It's a nano particles MSH additive (I have no relation to the company). Quiets all the extraneous mechanical gear noise and clatter/chatter and makes things run smooth like butter. For the inevitable haters, it's not snake oil. It's backed by scientific research.

    here is link to supporting paper:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8pfcgb90bimgwf/1-s2.0-S0301679X17300531-main.pdf?dl=0
     
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  16. Snapshift

    Snapshift Formula Junior
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    May 31, 2020
    715
    Centralia IL
    Full Name:
    Lyle D. Pahnke

    Interesting stuff. Do you use it in your Ferrari engine oil? Please keep posting on your experiences with this. It may be just the ticket for many things. Thanks
     
  17. catdog

    catdog Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2010
    250
    Hi @Snapshift i have been using the engine formula since it came out and now have tried it on over 10 performance cars including in no particular order a v10 M6, Maserati grab turismo, Alfa 4C, GT350, 996, ZL1... it's incredible. Even on my 991TT and of course on my F430.

    The chain noise and valve clicking and all these extraneous friction noises simply disappear after a while and you hear only induction and combustion/exhaust sounds; in the 991 TT it made the turbo whistle, which many of us love, disappear... it's pretty expensive as I use the large dose $199 (most of these cars have >8 quart capacity). And it gets better with time, they tell you to wait 500 miles for full effect, usually It's a biphasic response with quieter operation within 10-20 miles then another improvement in engine performance and smoothness around 200 miles or so. I have even used it in newer cars < 2k mileage with similar results.

    I would recommend yon try it on a beater or old car you don't value much and then take it from there. From the paper I attached you see it immediately decreases friction and with time it build diamond like structures on the surface (DLC).
     
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  18. catdog

    catdog Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2010
    250
    Hi, thought I would give an update, after 180 miles, manual gearshift action is sublime, much better, less noise and the whine at around 80mph in 6th gear is much fainter, nearly gone.
    I would highly recommend you try the manual transmission Tribotex additive, I added two of them in the gearbox oil.
    Night and day difference, I am blown away....
    https://shop.tribotex.com/products/transmission-manual
     
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  19. Snapshift

    Snapshift Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 31, 2020
    715
    Centralia IL
    Full Name:
    Lyle D. Pahnke

    I have ordered 2 tubes for the older cars as suggested and will probably do the transmission later on. I was unfamiliar with this product until you suggested it, but am willing to give it a try. Any reason that there are no other users on the forum that you are aware of? I appreciate the follow-up. I read all the scientific/ engineering articles and it appears there is good science. I would welcome a thorough discussion on this product. AS in anything, you can find good and bad reviews but the science seems to verify it well. You say you have been using it in all your cars and have great experiences.
     
    catdog likes this.
  20. catdog

    catdog Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2010
    250
    #20 catdog, Sep 2, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
    Hi @Snapshift i have been using for years and with excellent results. I have tried to mention it on camaro forum for my 2017 SS and 2018 ZL1 and then on a Mustang forum for my 2017 Gt350 and everyone made fun of snake oil etc and posts always degenerate into nothing (similar response on Rennlist when I used it on my 911s); also same dismissive attitude at http://bobistheoilguy.com/ where they supposedly have lubrication experts. As I am older now i care less re. forum response and more about sharing my experience in case it helps someone out there and that's why I uploaded that tribology article. Actually F-chat has the most helpful least snob/annoying vibe paradoxically...
    But in this case of my F430 gearbox whine in 6th gear is so grating and annoying and TriboTEX finally came up with a gearbox formula (I suspect it's same stuff just in a smaller tube) that I finally did it. Wasn't sure what to expect, I know in engine, it decreases chain noise and all high frequency sound components. I am very happy with how it has transformed the gearbox noise and action. Share your experience when you get to it, i think it will actually be much more significant difference in Ferraris because of proximity of engine and less sound deadening. I have zero connection to the company; when if first came out I emailed founder who was down to earth, very helpful, and enthusiastic that I liked the results on my cars.
     
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  21. Mario Andretti

    Mario Andretti Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Silver Subscribed

    Aug 9, 2020
    1,357
    Boston
    .... I have exactly the same gear whine on my 2009 E92 M3, when coasting in 4th of 5th gear. It is not the gearbox, but the differential doing it though. Very common for diffs and usually harmless. Are you guys sure it's the transmission?
     
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  22. brogenville

    brogenville Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 24, 2012
    2,005
    UK
    Full Name:
    Robin
    The technical paper above is really all about how this stuff reduces coefficient of friction. My cation for using this on gearboxes (and diff's for that matter) is that you actually need a certain amount of friction for your syncromesh to work. It's very apparent when your syncro's aren't working right when you're driving a manual car, but on an F1 car, you're not going to notice anything - that hydraulic system will just bang the gear in regardless.

    There is a reason people like Bob is the Oil Guy don't like additives. Whilst there are exceptions, more often than not if something is meant to be in an oil, the manufacture of the oil will put it there.
     
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  23. catdog

    catdog Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2010
    250
    @brogenville those are all excellent points; the only thing i have noticed is that when car is cold now, i don't have to double clutch from 1st to 2nd the first few times until the gearbox warms up; it shifts right in and there is no synchro issue so far. I will keep an eye for that and report back.

    @Mario Andretti good point, it may well be the differential but i think the fluid is shared in the F430 transmission, isn't it?

    Also, although it initially decreases friction, you will see from that paper that it builds a new layer of DLC/diamond like compound which accumulates and stabilizes with mileage/use (recommend ~500 miles for engines).
     
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  24. Snapshift

    Snapshift Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 31, 2020
    715
    Centralia IL
    Full Name:
    Lyle D. Pahnke
    I would imagine the whine is from the differential probably the gear back lash setting on the differential is slightly enlarged when it is warm and just has that natural frequency at 80 mph.

    https://www.mechanic.com.au/news/differential-noise-and-vibration-here-s-how-to-diagnose-the-problem

    (excerpt from above article)
    If however, the backlash is excessive, there is a brief moment during which two gear teeth lose contact with each other before contact between the next two gear teeth is established. The result is that gear teeth slam into each other on either the drive or coast sides of the ring gear teeth (depending on operating conditions) which is what creates the whining noises in differentials that we all love to hate.

    There is no way i am going to have the transmission/e diff pulled to check the setup of the ring gear/ pinion interface. I am going to try some friction modifier and perhaps add Lucas thick viscosity oil stabilizer to fill the gaps or backlash distances between the ring and pinion and see if that helps. I am encouraged by catdog's experiences with this annoyance. The transmission and diffferential share the same oil bath, and I suspect it is the issue mentioned above. The noise is apparent at 80 mph no matter what gear the car is driving in, and only starts when the oll is warmed up. When cold it is not as apparent, so that may give me some idea that the thicker oil may be just the ticket.
     
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  25. catdog

    catdog Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2010
    250
    Just thought I would give an update, took the F430 for a drive this weekend and the gearbox feels excellent even though ambient temperature was low in the high 50's-60's. The whine in 6th gear is nearly about completely gone now about 500 miles after adding Tribotex additive in transmission oil. I can barely hear the previously loud whine which is now barely detectable. Also no issues with synchro action, the shifts are excellent.
     
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