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F430 F1 System Troubleshooting w/ Data & Graphs

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by nessus-gte, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    92
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    In my previous threads I took steps towards troubleshooting my F1 system pressure problems:
    Now finally with the X431 data logs I can show much more clearly how the problem manifests itself. Here are my preliminary graphs that detail the F1 system pressure problem.

    IDLE - IN NEUTRAL
    • F1 pump actuates every 85 seconds
    • F1 pump runs for 3-5 seconds per activation
    • Pressure slowly tapers off
    Image Unavailable, Please Login


    1ST GEAR ONLY
    (Driving continuously in circles, no shifting)
    • F1 pump actuates every 10-12 seconds
    • F1 pressure dissipates RAPIDLY!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    At this point, the next troubleshooting steps are not clear to me. Others in my previous thread have suggested that the E-Diff Solenoid should be considered next. However, I have no E-Diff warnings or other stored fault conditions.

    What would you look at next if you saw these graphs for your F1 system? All input is welcome.
     
  2. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,211
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Do you literally mean in circles ..cause the e-diff would kick in if you were doing tight circles

    Also ..what rpm were you at ..the clutch may have been feathering if below 100grab point

    Try graphing a normal drive .. let's look at that as well

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  3. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    92
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Good questions, Dominick.

    This is my personal 'test course' at my Country Club. :D
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    This parking lot easily lets me stay at 3000 RPM in 1st gear with no braking. This is how and where the 1st gear data (shown above) was captured.

    Here is a graph showing more normal driving through a neighborhood mostly in 2nd gear. The saw-tooth effect persists. :(
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Any thoughts?
     
  4. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 26, 2017
    233
    So. Cal
    Hey Charles,

    First off excellent use and display of the launch live data...!
    My first question are you still experience any negative symptoms.?
    My observation of your graph is the system is maintaining control pressure with spot on activation around 500 bar ON and 650 Off...
    With very consistent pressure rises and decreases.........
    Still learning the system myself I would expect the pump to activate for the following:
    1-gear engagement
    2-T/O bearing movement needed to operate clutch
    3-E diff activation
    4-maintain required system pressure...
    5-Your first data display shows no load just min/Max pressure needed.....Thus showing the longer intervals between pump activation..
    K//
     
  5. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 26, 2017
    233
    So. Cal
    Additional question can you graph 6th gear....If that shows long periods of no pump activation it all may be normal but if you are experiencing symptom 1-4 do we have internal actuator leakage..?
    Again are you feeling issues gear request 1-4 and nothing for 5-6..?
    Interesting stuff...!
    K///
     
  6. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,211
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    We need to get a benchmark from a good running f430

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
    mike01606 likes this.
  7. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
    297
    Gothenburg
    Full Name:
    Zlatan
    How did you suspect that the pump cycled too often?
     
  8. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    92
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Alas! Kaspar is on to something very important!
    Here is my new data with 3rd through 5th gear. In these graphs I have included Gear Engaged, to show conclusively what gear I am testing in.

    3RD GEAR

    4TH GEAR


    5TH GEAR

    6th gear was exactly the same and held for over 2 minutes.
    Side Note: I lose pressure more quickly in Neutral then I do in 3rd - 6th gear. o_O

    To eliminate any chance that Ediff is involved, I repeated 1st and 2nd gear testing going in a straight line. The sawtooth pressure reading in those two gears persists identically, no matter how I drive.


    I think I need some F1 actuator expert advice here. As Kaspar suggests, does the actuator have seals that hold pressure only for specific gears?
     
  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,352
    Something is leaking in the lower gears.
    Either a gear actuator, or a clutch actuator.
     
  10. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 21, 2012
    763
    Cheshire UK
    Full Name:
    Mike M
    The WSM has a hydraulic circuit diagram and a table of the solenoid actuations for each gear.
    I’d use that to try to identify when the leak is occurring and isolate potential causes.

    Remember also that it could be a leak at the 3rd - 6th hydraulics and it stops because they are in use rather than closed.
     
  11. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 26, 2017
    233
    So. Cal
    Ok here is what I have so far:
    All of the following results are in neutral only:
    Pump on-41.6 bar consistent or 603.35 psi.
    Pump off-54.3 bar....consistent. Or 787.55 psi.
    Pressure stayed without pump restarting: 3:32/ 3:34 seconds consistently.
    Charles: There is a huge discrepancy in pressure readings: Is it possible you are overlooking a decimal point...?
    Your readings indicate excessive pressure....
    No question there is leakage...lets not forget the solenoid valves these are the gateway before activation.
    PM heading your way.
    K//
     
  12. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    i'd replace the accumulator and see what happens. 4 out of my 5 cases are because of the black bulb.
     
  13. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
    297
    Gothenburg
    Full Name:
    Zlatan
    Also have this issue and had the car in yesterday for replacement of accumulator bulb and diagnosing the system before and after the replacement of the bulb. My Scud Ing relay indicates that there is an error 7 which means the pump cycles more then it should sometimes.

    The replacement of the bulb did not make any improvements at all. My actuator is working well above normal, the E-DIFF valve is functioning as it should. There are no external leaks. Tech suspected there could be an issue with the clutch valve or that the pump is starting to degrade. Since everything is working as it should and there are no error codes in the car itself suggestion is that i continue driving and wait until something deteriorates.

    I talked to Scud Ing about this thread and got some info that the E-DIFF valve will be activated even in straight line. E-DIFF valve activation depends on speed and manettino setting. For instance, if you cruise at 50 km/h in straight line, the E-DIFF solenoid will be activated very often. Cruise at 80 km/h and it won't activate at all.
     
  14. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    92
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Thanks again, Kaspar. When you look at those graphs above on the Y axis, you can see the Launch labels the pressure in bar. I now know that Launch incorrectly uses bar units when it should be using psi.

    I know this, because I had a 20 minute conversation with Serkan, the master F1 system rebuilder in Florida, after he looked at this data. Here is a quick summary of my conversation with this interesting man:
    • Rule #1: SERKAN DOES NOT DIAGNOSE OVER THE PHONE
    • Rule #2: SERKAN DOES NOT DIAGNOSE OVER THE PHONE
    • Rule #3..... No need to say it again. :D Serkan is extremely cautious about giving advice without doing hands-on diagnostic. Good man!
    • English is Serkan's 4th language, so listen carefully! ;)
    • Serkan was only willing to call me back and talk with me over the phone about my issue, because he had NEVER seen F1 diagrams that look like this.
      • First things he asked me were:
        • "Who are you, that make diagrams that look like this?"
        • "I am impressed, even an idiot could understand them. No offense."
        • "What tool are you using to make this data?"
      • Serkan had not heard of Launch X431 before.
    • He told me my pressure readings are in psi not bar. If they were really bar, my F1 system would have already exploded.
      • This makes me wonder what other Units the X431 has wrong. o_O
    • Even after seeing my conclusive pressure loss in 1st and 2nd gear, Serkan was not entirely convinced that it was actuator leakage. He asked me to send a range of additional data, particularly on the Electrovalves.
    • He let me know that all my F1 system testing can be done, and is normally done, without actually driving the car.
      • He asked that I send him this data with the car at idle, preferably after running for 5 minutes.
    That is where I stand so far. I still need to do more data logging.
     
  15. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,211
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    That awesome ... Great that you are getting this level of help ..let us know what happens

    Can you share the data you are sending ?

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  16. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 26, 2017
    233
    So. Cal
    Charles,

    Interesting..my Launch data also shows it in bar but with a decimal point...I know we have the options in settings to switch over to PSI...
    I'm glad to hear we have a expert looking into this for you..!
    Looking forward to learning as much as we can...
    Keep us all updated with your findings.
    K//
     
  17. windsock

    windsock Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    477
    Beaverton Oregon
    First keep in mind that the actuator receives no pressure except during the actual shift. Driving along in a specific gear there is no pressure on any lines until you request a shift. The detents in the gearbox shift forks hold the gear until the next requested shift. Also note that the Ediff strategy is very specific to throttle, RPM and Torque request. You can have ediff requested in second gear at a given speed but not in higher gears at the same speed completely dependent on the torque request of the Motronic unit managed by the ABS unit.
    There is a very specific Ferrari bulletin for the exact symptom you have and it will be a leaking Ediff valve 90% of the time.
    You need to drive very straight at 20-25 mph very steady speed and very steady throttle with no steering. F1 pump on time with a greater then 15% duty cycle indicates a leaking ediff valve. Occasionally you can clean the valve by cycling it very quickly manually, one of the old OTC fuel injector tester boxes works well for this, otherwise the valve will need replacement, bleeding and bedding in. another area that can cause issues is if the steering angle sensor is not calibrated correctly. If it is showing steering wheel input while in the straight ahead position it will cause excessive ediff on time. the test route you are showing in the parking lot cannot be used for evaluating pump on time, Steering wheel input and throttle input causes ediff operation..
     
    flash32 likes this.
  18. windsock

    windsock Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    477
    Beaverton Oregon
    Pump time maximum should be 8% duty cycle not 15%
     
  19. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 26, 2017
    233
    So. Cal
    Excellent feedback...Great insight....Thank You for sharing this.!!
     
  20. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    92
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Windsock,

    For the sake of clarity, I want to be sure that this is the part you are talking about:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Do you have any links you can share to the bulletin you mention or any other troubleshooting threads that address the diagnosis of a leaking Ediff valve?
    Many thanks.
     
  21. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,211
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    It is unfortunate that the x431 doe not have ediff support ... At I do not see anything on 10.26

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  22. windsock

    windsock Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    477
    Beaverton Oregon

    Yes.
     
  23. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,211
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    This is an excellent thread ..I would love to see more of these dyi threads diagosing problems

    Given the electronics of these cars...one only need a good diag tool and a good decision table flow chart ... Is IT and engineers love that ..boo dirty hands but positive results



    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  24. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    92
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Thanks Kaspar, I will go through my unit settings and see if I can replicate the bar unit's decimal values you see. That will make comparison and collaboration much easier.
     
  25. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    92
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    I now know why some people see BAR units with a decimal point. It matters which TCU option is selected with Launch.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    CFC231 data stream looks correctly formatted.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login


    Within the CFC231 TCU module I also found the 'Ediff System Leak' parameter.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    I tested 1st gear following Serkan's advice.

    • Test F1 system at idle
    • No driving this time
    This graph shows:
    • Ediff System Leak data stream, for whatever that is worth.
    • Pressure loss is very rapid in 1st Gear
      • Neutral lost pressure just as quickly
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    For further, and much more professional diagnostic, I will be sending Serkan all the parameters he asked to see. I will post that here as well, as soon as I have it logged.

    I am looking for an explanation of the 'Ediff System Leak' parameter and its typical numeric range. Any insight on that would be much appreciated.
     

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