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F430 no start condition, help on wiring schematics

Discussion in '360/430' started by 308GTB1978, Mar 11, 2024.

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  1. Mario Andretti

    Mario Andretti Formula 3
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    #51 Mario Andretti, Mar 12, 2024
  2. Mario Andretti

    Mario Andretti Formula 3
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    #52 Mario Andretti, Mar 12, 2024
    Too small, ping me directly if you want this file enlarged. sorry, @Qavion already mentioned this.
     
  3. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #53 Qavion, Mar 12, 2024
    How hard is it to access this connector? Can the forward console "saddle" be easily removed?

    It's probably easier to check the input into PSR7 (pin 2), especially if the panels/relay covers have already been removed. There should be an earth/ground when the button is pushed.

    It might be interesting to see if there is a ground with the battery in cut off. That should prove that there are/aren't electronics involved in the steering wheel button circuit.
     
  4. Mario Andretti

    Mario Andretti Formula 3
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    #54 Mario Andretti, Mar 12, 2024
    Not exactly sure; from diagram I have it seems to be a direct connection via the clockspring and that connector to PSR7... But you are right, monitoring changes in Pin 2 on the PSR7 would be easier. When you push start.
     
  5. Qavion

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    #55 Qavion, Mar 13, 2024
    I think the diagrams are simplified. The Starter Button has 4 wires and it looks like it is wired to the manettino module via a white plug.

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    The manettino module is wired to the big red/black clockspring plug. The horn and airbag wiring seems to go directly to the red/black plug.

    I haven't been able to find any wiring diagrams for the clockspring. The red/black plug has 8 pins. The other end of the clockspring has a plug with 12 pins! I don't know for sure which wire goes to which wire.
     
  6. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

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    #56 308GTB1978, Mar 13, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2024
    A friend is on the car today : he can start the car by shuntting a relay.

    But : he can change the gears with the OBD tool whereas he can't with the paddles, neither putting the car in R.

    So work in progress...

    I'll do the test car off to see if the ground from the steering wheel is send to the relay.

    I think there are two problems : CAN or start button from the steering wheel for starting and ???? for gear shift.

    Remember : on this car the mannetino buttons works BUT my OBD tool cannot go into the "steering wheel system" whereas it can on others F430 !!!! When it works, I can activate a "start switch" and we hear a "clic" arond the dash.
    On this car : nothing because not reachable ...

    Maybe there are 4 wires on the start button because of 2 switches inside ?
     
  7. Qavion

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    #57 Qavion, Mar 13, 2024
    But which relay? PSR7? PSR6? PSR7 reacts to steering wheel input. PSR6 reacts to F1 TCU input and requires the car to be in neutral with the clutch depressed. This requires the brake pedal to be pushed.

    For sure, but are both switches used? I don't even think the ground test on the start button will tell us.

    [QUOTE="308GTB1978, post: 149560505, member: 154437" When it works, I can activate a "start switch" and we hear a "clic" arond the dash.[/QUOTE]

    So the problem is intermittent?
     
  8. Qavion

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    #58 Qavion, Mar 13, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2024
    For info... The starter button/PSR7 also sends a voltage to the F1 TCU for some reason.

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    The full wiring can be seen in my F1 diagram:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/srJBif9GGfl12qsN

    The signal goes to F1 TCU pin B-24. The pin in the OEM wiring diagrams is just labelled "+50", which means starter voltage.

    Maybe CAN Bus information is not required by the F1 TCU for start? (unless the CAN Bus controls the operation of the Start Button). I suppose the earth check on PSR7 pin 2 will tell us something.
     
  9. 308GTB1978

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    #59 308GTB1978, Mar 13, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2024
    More news tomorrow after full debriefing :)

    He just told me : engine start with button obtained by : shunting PSR4 and by applying a ground to 85 @ PSR6.

    It looks like a full F1 ECU problem .... like a non-disengaging clutch.
     
  10. flash32

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    #60 flash32, Mar 13, 2024
    Look at the data stream from the diag tool fir the TCU ..need to see clutch position backing plate move when you turn key on ..maybe you have a hydraulic problem
    Or a clutch sensor issue
    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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  11. Qavion

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    #61 Qavion, Mar 13, 2024
    I'm not sure why you would need a shunt on PSR4 (the relay should be relaxed with the battery charger disconnected).... unless the contacts of the relay are broken. Just interchange it with, say, the AC Compressor relay (PSR1) to eliminate that.

    Yep... I was just about to say it's time for me to hand you over to @flash32 (Dominick), but it looks like he's already "stepped up to the plate" :D

    That doesn't explain your no-comms issue with the steering wheel though... and I'd appreciate it if you could still check the start button input to PSR7 ;)
     
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  12. 308GTB1978

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    #62 308GTB1978, Mar 13, 2024
    This is my exact tought : next time I go on the car I'll check this and tell you.

    Same thing : I'll do it ASAP.

    Maybe this week-end ;)
     
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  13. 308GTB1978

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    #63 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    [​IMG]

    Do you know what the connector with top red head deals with ?

    It is on the rear right, near the F1 system.

    As the owner did act on this I Wonder if the problem may be there ?
     
  14. eric355

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    #64 eric355, Mar 14, 2024
    Connector for Lambda sensor
     
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  15. 308GTB1978

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    #65 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    Ok thanks, as we tought so no link with the problem.

    We are focusing on the F1 inhibitions and clutch operation now.
     
  16. 308GTB1978

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    #66 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    Does anybody have any idea of the electrical signals coming from the sensors to the F1 ECU ?

    I imagine Z302 &303 are 0-5V, clutch sensor S062 : no idea, gearbox rpm Z029 : analog or PWM ?

    It would be helpful : I prefer a direct electrical measure to be compared to what the ECU "sees".

    Thanks.
     
  17. eric355

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    #67 eric355, Mar 14, 2024
    Z302 & Z303 & Z304 are 0-5V
    Clutch sensor S062 is a LVDT. 4 wires for primary (pins 34 & 46) and seconday windings (pins 35 & 47). A few kHz (from memory) not sinusoidal at all, very difficult to interpret from electrical measurement
    Z029 is a variable reluctance inductive sensor on primary shaft. Sinusoidal signal with speed dependant frequency and amplitude.
     
  18. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #68 flash32, Mar 14, 2024
    First step look at tool..the data stream ..that will tell you a lot and very quick

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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  19. 308GTB1978

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    #69 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    Ok, thanks.

    What we don't understand is, on the N position with the same OBD tool :

    - on the "broken" car the primary shaft of the gearbox is the same of the engine rpm.
    - on an another good F430, the primary shaft rpm is 0 until the engine is near 4000 rpm.

    o_O:rolleyes:
     
  20. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

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    #70 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    We will do this and we also prepare everything to gather the more informations.

    By the way, OBD can "lie" to you !!!

    You have bugs in ECU software (very rare but exist)
    You have bugs in OBD tool, common on chinese stuff but also on "official very expensive tools"
    You also have some "safety strategies" from ECU that do "remplacement" data if a sensor is dead or seen as failed so the ECU produce "false value" (that you see on the OBD) in order to get the car still alive.

    That is the reason why I always try to go to the electrical signals.

    Considering the "clutch position backing plate move" related to key, how do you proceed as "key off" the OBD has no CAN ?
     
  21. eric355

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    #71 eric355, Mar 14, 2024
    Key on, engine off, gives the TCU the reference closed clutch position. Clutch control is done relatively to this reference.
     
  22. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #72 flash32, Mar 14, 2024
    Sent Pm

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  23. eric355

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    #73 eric355, Mar 14, 2024
    What are the current min/max values for engagement and selection windows ?
     
  24. 308GTB1978

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    #74 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    I don't know, the car is 1 H from me, up to now we perform firts basic diag / second electrical investiguations on start button

    What are the good values ?
     
  25. eric355

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    #75 eric355, Mar 14, 2024
    4 values per gear (ie. 32 values) between 100 and 950.
     
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