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F430 no start condition, help on wiring schematics

Discussion in '360/430' started by 308GTB1978, Mar 11, 2024.

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  1. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
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    #76 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    We will check hoping the OBD tool can read this.

    What about the primary shaft RPM when in N and engine idling ?
    As a manual car : engine rpm = gearbox primary shaft rpm until clutch is disengage ?
     
  2. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #77 eric355, Mar 14, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2024
    Yes, diag tools can read these values, even a Thinkdiag.

    For a normal engine start (ie. with the start button) the TCU opens the clutch and select N (if not already in N) before enabling the starter relay. Gearbox speed should be 0 rpm.

    If the engine was started with a relay by-pass, it may well be that the TCU does not open the clutch, even afterwards, hence a gearbox speed equal to engine rpm.
     
    flash32 likes this.
  3. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #78 flash32, Mar 14, 2024
    Exactly ..what I am thinking and offered to help diag over the phone as well

    Thank you

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  4. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
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    #79 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    Now we can start the engine with the start button by "being the F1 ECU" by putting a ground on PSR6, so the signal doesn't come from the ECU, maybe the behaviour is different ?

    Anyway, that is our idea : a clutch problem.

    What about the gearbox primary shaft rpm vs engine rpm in normal operation ?
     
  5. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #80 eric355, Mar 14, 2024
    It should not be different if the TCU receives the +50 signal which initiates the clutch opening process ... provided pressure is OK.

    In normal process, gearbox speed should be 0.
     
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  6. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
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    #81 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    So when idling in N position, the clutch is open enought not to drive the gearbox shaft ?
     
  7. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #82 eric355, Mar 14, 2024
    Yes, in N the clutch is wide open (more open than it is in 1)
     
  8. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
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    #83 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    Understood.

    And if you increase the engine RPM, is the clutch closed around 4000 rpm by the ECU ?

    I don't want to over talk about that, if there is some dedicaced website or document, I'll read it ;)
     
  9. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #84 flash32, Mar 14, 2024
    That's why a 20-minute phone call could avoid all this back and forth on this thread

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  10. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
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    #85 308GTB1978, Mar 14, 2024
    Of course, thanks for you help.
    By the way it may also help some futur readers with the same problem ?

    Now my undestanding is :

    Following a mystery condition, the clutch is engaged on the car with no gear engaged.
    With KOEO the F1 ECU see the clutch position and try to open it, it fails, the ECU doesn't allow the engine to start.
    If we start the engine by being the computer, KOER : we see that primary gearbox shaft rpm is equal to engin rpm : the clutch is closed.

    What I can do is, with the OBD tool put the clutch in open position, and see the behaviour ?
     
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  11. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #86 Qavion, Mar 14, 2024
    ...and the written word may be easier for non-native English speakers to understand/translate.
     
  12. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #87 eric355, Mar 14, 2024
    Don't know, I have never look at clutch position while increasing rpm that high. I would be surprised that TCU closes it. No good reason to do that.

    The clutch was working OK one week ago. Not convinced it is the issue.

    Les us know the min/max values per gear discussed above.
     
  13. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #88 flash32, Mar 14, 2024
    I would say figure out offline and then write summary if issue and fix ...clean and straight to the fix ..better for the next person

    Whatever makes everyone happy..

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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  14. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #89 flash32, Mar 14, 2024
    I speak multiple languages - lol
     
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  15. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
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    #90 308GTB1978, Mar 15, 2024
    According to some guys it is one way to check that the PIS is OK.

    So what would be the root cause according to you ? and what tests to do ?

    Maybe we'll be on the car this WE...
     
  16. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #91 eric355, Mar 15, 2024
    Would be curious to know which guys.
    By no way, revving the engine in N can provide valuable information about the PIS


    I am afraid the TCU could be messed up and I would recommend to check basic data:
    - the 32 min/max values discussed above to check whether the gearchange grid is valid or not
    - engagement & selection potentiometers values when in N
    - clutch position when new
    - current closed clutch position
    - PIS
    - clutch degradation index
     
  17. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

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    #92 mike32, Mar 15, 2024
    The clutch release bearing is fitted with a sensor, this has a tiny roll pin to fix the sensor lever to the bearing, if that has failed, would that cause this problem.. when they fitted new bearing this had to be renewed.
     
  18. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #93 eric355, Mar 15, 2024
    AFAIK the clutch position sensor is working OK.
     
  19. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

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    #94 mike32, Mar 15, 2024
    If it was shorted, does it cure the problem ?
     
  20. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #95 eric355, Mar 15, 2024
    No ! The TCU needs a valid clutch position sensor to control clutch operation in closed loop.
     
  21. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

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    #96 308GTB1978, Mar 15, 2024
    I'll check.

    Ok, we do that.
    Gérard plan to call you :)
     
  22. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #97 flash32, Mar 15, 2024
    Would love to hear more about that PiS check ..never heard or read about such a thing

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  23. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #98 eric355, Mar 15, 2024
    I got him on WhatsApp ... and I just learned that the clutch hose was found disconnected at one point !!!!
    Last week the clutch was working fine so the hose was obviously connected.
    It is now supposed to be reconnected and bled.
    If the car still does not start normally (ie. via the button and no shunt), I would recommend to try to force clutch actuation (eg. by selecting clutch bleeding on the diag tool but without opening the bleed screws) and read the clutch position during the process.
    If it does not move, or make any noise, next thing to look at is the clutch electrovalve ...
     
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  24. 308GTB1978

    308GTB1978 Karting

    Dec 21, 2013
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    #99 308GTB1978, Mar 15, 2024
    We discover (Olivier&me) that the hose was disconnected.
    So all the tests you did with Gérard were : hose disconnected.

    The we re-connected and were focused on the start button because at this time the engine did'nt start anymore with the start button.

    We think that the trials of Gérard alone with hose disconnected put the ECU on a "impossible" configuration as maybe 1 mouvement of the clutch was possible and then nothing as there were no hydraulic pressure (hose disconnected).

    We perfomed a bleed of the clutch hydraulic circuit after hose re-connection.

    That's why I first want to use the diag tool to : take the values (yours etc ...) then move the clutch and see what are the changes.
     
  25. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #100 eric355, Mar 15, 2024
    No way the tests we did was with the hose disconnected.
    First, the car was starting without issue at several occasions and second we were able to see the clutch moving on the diag at engine start.
    It had to be disconnected afterwards.
     
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