F8 or 488 stereo aftermarket upgrade

I ordered my F8 with the HiFi fully expecting to bring it to my audio guy to improve it. For me it sounds pretty good out of the box and never took it to my audio guy for upgrades, YMMV...

 

Never had a 488, so can’t compare. I left all the factory settings except I enabled “quantum logic” and overall I’m satisfied with it.

 

Virtually the same between F8 and 488. Same components etc. One can get it to sound decent after playing around with it, but still, don't expect too much. Installing better drivers from Scanspeak or Dynaudio would more than likely be a simple but nice upgrade.

I will add this. Some have a tendency to refer to installing Focal Utopia drivers, simply because they are expensive and high end. While using the Utopias can result in a good result in a high end car audio installation, it is quite difficult to do so. The Utopia tweeters are very difficult to integrate properly, even in highly customized special installations, and when people use them in lieu of OE stuff there is almost no way the result won't be a brittle, harsh and bright sound. Part of getting Utopia tweeters to settle down is also to choose both electronics and wiring accordingly, not to mention acoustically treating the car etc. So please, if you run into a car audio dealer who wants you to buy Utopia components, think long and hard about it. Unless you rip out everything and do a full custom install with pods and the whole nine yards, it is not a good route to go.
Stuff like the Scanspeak Gold series ring radiator tweeter or Dynaudio Esotar 110, will play circles around the hyped up Utopias. There's a reason why many high end speaker manufactures have bone away from the harsh sounding Focal beryllium tweeters. There are much better solutions, albeith they may not be as cool to brag about. Hell, in most cases the somewhat cheaper Dynaudio Esotec 102 tweeter will sound a lot better than the Utopia.

If the stock electronics are used, I'd use either the aforementioned Scanspeak Gold series w. the ring radiator or just the Dynaudio Esotec.

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Bro- you never fail to teach me something with your posts.....thank you

 

Not everyone is going to cut up a Ferrari to install a system.

Where do you believe you can mount 111 mm tweeters ? Im very good in installation e.g i got tweeters weighing about 8 kgs into a BMW and you wouldn't know where they were but no one is wanting to do that.

Dynaudio Esotec 102 Better than the Focal ? Maybe to you ears. Your discussing a very subjective subject.

Either way poorly place speakers which they are in a Ferrari does absolutely nothing as far as imaging is concerned. It is just NOT the right car to get anything that would resemble audiophile.

Electronics , hope you not talking DSP if you are , im out.

A lot of speaker manufacturers use the Scanspeak Gold series w. the ring radiator because FOCAL stopped selling individual drivers. The market went crazy looking for a replacement speaker and that's all they have come up with.

 

Thrte's a few things you need to keep in mind here.
No, very few are going to cut up their Ferrari, but you won't have to.
Withe the Esotar 110 you can order a set of the mounting brackets used for the OE tweeters to modify, and those are fairly cheap. That means it is not only something you can make look 100% OE, but it is also reversible.
The other thing is this. When I say that the 102 sound better than Utopias, it is based on using them with stock components, or in stock locations. The Utopias are so difficult to get the best from that in many cases a lower end and more forgiving driver will be better - even if you use better DSP and all the rest of it. Diamond tweeters, beryllium drivers etc. are yesterdays news and like I said, more and more are going back to soft dome tweeters. Yes they read great on paper, but they shred your ears. Sit down with a pair of B&W 802's or a set of Focal Utopia floor standers for a few hours and your head will be ringing.
Now I brought up the Scanspeak Gold ring radiater because of two things. One is that it plays almost as well as the large 110, but it fits in the OE location. Have checked this on both the 812, F8, and 488. No cutting needed. The other neat thing is that like with the 102 and 110, it is very forgiving. Yes it has the ability to play in the best custom installs, but it will also sound good when used with lesser components.
Some drivers are much more sensitive to placement than others, and again here this works well. So while a pod is obviously the best solution from an audible stadpoint, there is still gains to be had from using the stock locations.
You can obviously look into a full electronic upgrade using Helix or Brax etc. as is what I plan on with my GTS, but a lot of what is wrong with the Ferrari system has to do with the rotten Harman-Kardon components used.
Will imaging and phase response be perfect? No. But upgrading the drivers and implement a 31 band eq will still get you in a much better place than OE. And if you upgrade the amps, do a bit of simple acoustic treatment behind the drivers, you can get pretty far.
You are correct that the Esotar 110 won't fit in all cars without hacking, but I kniw my dealer have had a few done using modified speaker brackets which enables you to do a clean and reversible install.

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The Ferrari isn't and never will be a car for audio excellence. No one even yourself will never get the path lenght differences down to < 5 inches to achieve a a soundstage with perfect imaging and response in both seats. And the issues of a subwoofer and the Ferrari is a fail. OEM locations are just for convenience for the car maker. They are wrong with regards to a stereo.

You can make it sound nicer for sure but that's about it.

 

I would agree with all of this.
The DynAudio and Arc Audio Black Series drivers sound phenomenal -- on axis, in a showroom. Off axis... that's a different story. You may as well save your money and go for some nice Focal K2 or KX2's. I also agree with the other poster regarding the Beryllium tweeters, in that they personally make my ears feel like someone is taking a chisel to them. The Utopias really are overkill in a Ferrari. That being said, many people order the Utopias simply for bragging rights. You can get the Utopia tweeters to fit in the 458 dash (you just have to come in underneath, they are too large to surface mount). The Utopia 8WM (an 8" Focal subwoofer and grill that goes for $1,400.00) is the only high end 8" sub I have found that will fit in the back of a 488 Spider, a Tributo or an F8 Spider without interfering with the seats, so I've seen several of those in these cars.
It is possible to get some really nice sounds out of these small cars, you just need to get a bit creative.

 

Whether or not it is worth it to upgrade the drivers in a Ferrari is totally subjective. Do I think Dynaudio Esotar is worth it if you don't do anything to the electronics and other things? No, not really. My point here was simply to say that IF you want to keep it "high end" in your Ferrari, I'd rather go this route or the Scanspeaks.

As for the on axis vs. off axis. Here's the thing. I have NEVER heard the Dyn Esotar in a showroom, ever. I have heard them in cars, on and off axis. And to say that they are not doing well off axis, just boggles my mind. Of course what we like in terms of "house sound", is personal. I do think the Focal K2 is also nice, nicer than Utopias in fact, and if you prefer that signature over Dyn, Scanspeak, Morel etc. more power to you. But from a fidelity standpoint, they have nothing more to offer than Dynaudio Esotec, and are also competitively priced - they are just differnt. Is the Dynaudio Esotec 102 the best mid level tweeter? That's personal. it has a bit of a soft top end with a bit of a roll-off, but it is a very pleasant and well defined sounding driver that easily integrates, both on and off axis.

When we look at what these cars cost us, for me it is not a huge addition to add say some K2, Esotec or Scanspeak Silver drivers. Will it be the same as a custom install in a Lexus? No, but I don't expect it to be. But it is lifting the OE performance quite a bit and to me that's worth it.

I don't wish to debate this any more. As always with debates about audio, it is so personal and everyone have the right answer. I have my ideas about what works and what does not, and I have my ideas of what I think makes sense and what does not. One thing is for sure, and that is the fact that if you think the exotic car world is full of things that are ridiculously overpriced, it is nothing compared to what you find in the car audio world. The amount of snake oil and crap being touted as high end end you can't live without, few things compare to the car audio world.

So my point here was simply to say that it is worth it to be cautious if one wants to upgrade the system and feel like going with high end components for a high end car. Forget any everyday kind of logic, we're debating exotic sports cars. It is very understandable why some want to keep things top shelf despite it not making a ton of sense. In that regard, I just think the Utopias is a bad choice based on personal experience installing them and trying to get them to work.

Have a great week, stay healthy. I'm out

 

Was this a debate? That's new to me... I thought it was just a bunch of guys who are passionate about Ferraris and high end car stereos discussing their opinions. I love talking about this stuff! And having people chime in with their thoughts that are also well versed on the subject is like wandering around in the desert and finding an oasis. And, as an added bonus, I always end up learning new things. So by all means, keep the opinions coming! We are all having fun here. Aren't we? I sure hope so.

Okay here's another one, slightly off topic but maybe not. I have never been able to get a 10" sub to sound right in a Ferrari. It just seems that there is not enough room in the cabin for the sound to develop. I mean deep bass. A sedan with a second order enclosure is a piece of cake. But the cubic airspace needed for a fourth order enclosure with a ten starts encroaching on all of the available space behind the seats (which isn't much). What do you guys think? Hopefully I can learn more cool stuff!

 

With regards to subs that really easy to answer. Its not like talking about tweeters or midranges. ITS perfectly clear cut , WIN , FAIL. Brand not important at all provided electrical an mechanical specs are suitable. Here Focal, Dynaudio and all these exotic high priced items are CRAP. They never learned how to make Subs to work in car audio and to a less extent in home audio.

Subs are subs. The problem is one is putting a box in a box ( the car cabin )

Open a window or a spider and response changes. Most cars that are audiophile examples will have an aperiodic membrane. In the IASCA years I never heard a car with sealed , vented or free air ever win.

Movement of the cone needs to be controlled physically and if you know how to electronically for even better results. However the Ferrari basically doesnt have a boot for the the 3rd chamber and no one is going to cut a hole for the 3rd chamber because of lack of boot.

Since we want to go down to at least 25 hz the bigger the better with an excellent Xmax. Nowhere to add 2 x 15 inches in a Ferrari.,

FYI my car 15 inch subs x 2 went right down to 10 hz. The total box volume was barely HALF a cubic foot for both the subs

 

I haven been working on Ferraris long time and why do you need a radio for in a Ferrari doesn't count .Plus you have to be careful to not set the car off network because the radio is part of the network and you will be in big trouble. I wouldn't mess with it even Ferrari dealership wont install you an after market radio .

 

I have a list of Ferrari dealerships nationwide who are more than happy to install a complete aftermarket car audio system in any Ferrari. As long as any aftermarket equipment downstream of the amplifier produces the same load as the OEM speakers, the car has no idea that anything has changed.

 

My experience, having done an upgrade on multiple cars, multiple marques, over 30 years, including Ferraris- its almost never worth it. There is almost always some trade off. And the cost to get it really good, and look really good is always some multiple of the factory upgrade. Yes, you can do better, but the trade offs always drove me crazy (rattles, parts that dont look stock (I would know))... then you go to sell the car to get something new and, guess what, the new buyers don’t like what you’ve done. My advice- keep it stock. I’ve found the hi-fi upgrades in these cars is pretty good but in my 488 I had the standard stereo. It was OK after tuning. I have the upgrade in the Pista and its better. I find the sound suitably dynamic and involving- thats not when I’m enjoying the grumble from the engine.


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It turned into a discussion about what is the best approach. So yes, we are discussing/debating out ideas about cars and in this case car audio.

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dynaudio all day long...

 

The first time I heard some DynAudio's, I was amazed at the depth and quality of the sound!

 

Breaking in the speakers does improve the sound. And believe it or not, carbon door panels do improve the sound. They help the rear B pillar speakers by reflecting the sound forward. And the rigid panel creates some sound from the door speaker enclosure.
But sure doing a custom system will bring better sound. Because the HK head unit is integrated into the infotainment system, one wouldn’t want to replace the unit. With the JBL upgrade what is the specification of that JBL amplifier? How many channels and how many Amps/ channel (@4 ohms)
Also does the Amp have built in crossover capabilities?

 

All good questions!
The JBL amplifier is rated at over 1200 Watts into several channels. And, yes, the signals are crossed over in the amp. This presents a challenge when you are adding an aftermarket amplifier. To do it right, you need a special piece of signal processing equipment (like the JL Audio FIX 82) to take care of this. After you install and calibrate the unit, it flattens out the signals of each channel and presents a flat, pure 20-20K signal to the aftermarket amplifier. Ideally you want to either run a DSP (digital signal processor) or an amp with an integrated DSP to take care of the gain problems and to create your own crossover slopes. And finally, you need some load stabilizers (Audio Control, etc.) in order to fool the JBL amp by adjusting the load to match the OEM speakers. If the JBL amp sees an impedance it's not used to, it will get grouchy and just shut off. A set of AC-LGD 60's will solve that problem in short order.
Note that these problems are not specific to Ferrari; many new cars have these exact same issues. That's why these new products have been developed.

 

Not anywhere close the to the power requirements i wanted. I was doing initial speaker location and blew up the midbass in 5 seconds.

 

This is good to know.

 

If you can blow an Esotar 650 in 5 seconds, that was you doing something wrong. I have done more installs in the past that I care to remember, I have worked in prp audio running sound in everything from studios to arenas. I know my DSP's, amps and how it works. I know how to set gains, crossovers and all the rest of it. Saying you can burn that driver that easy is B.S. you would either have ran it ear splittingly loud, at a frequency it was not made for, or have had your gain settings all out of whack to induce a ton of distortion.

It is not an SPL style speaker, but it is perfectly capable of playing loud and clean in its operating range. It's a good speaker and pretty well put together. Even much lesser speakers don't just "blow". To blow any ofvthe 5.75 or larger midbass drivers in both the Esotar and Esotec range will take some talent. I've done some crazy chit with amps and speakers over the years, but my record for burned drivers are very low. 9 out of 10 times speakers blow due to user error. And 5 seconds? Not even sure I could do that with a Lab PLM 20k44 if the driver was in its intended operating band and the signal was clean.

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It uses a 12 channel amp with dsp. There is an upside and downside to this. If you just want to use different drivers. You don't need to use any passive filters. All drivers are active.

The downside is that if you want to run aftermarket amp(s) you need to take out what is there and use either amps+dsp, or amps with dsp built in. Helix and Brax have some solutions. Helix actually has a 12 channel dsp amp that should fit where the OE amp goes. I'm considering this solution for the GTS.

No matter what amp solution one uses, the other upside is this. The speaker wire is already routed. Due to the factory system being fully active, there are 12 sets of speaker wires going to the speaker locations. So if one uses a pair of 6 channel or one 12 channel dsp amp, the install should not be too intrusive. I believe the audio signal is sent from the headunit via a toshlink or coax cable, and most dsp's can use that. If I'm wrong and it uses CAN bus then it is more of a challenge, but a good installer will know what to do.

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