Failed emissions in Californa

Richard,

Check the flow plate.


you can change the mixture by tweeking, 1/4 turn, the mixture screw.
(Do you have Cats...?)
(I will try to find a photo.)

Edwardo
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Most Mondials were barely good for 150 mph, but we all know white cars are much faster.

And really, anything above 600 and you really should be slowing down. The light is really on for a reason then.

No, actually the slow down light is telling you that you have fuel burning in your cat and not in your engine. You have at least one plug not lighting its fuel IMO.

If you have a plug not firing you should see it in the HC reading, but you might need to look pre-cats. HCs are unburnt fuel passing through the engine. What was your HC reading and what is the CA limit like? Some one like Rifledriver should know this: how much unburnt fuel will the cats hide? Would we see a plug not firing post-cat?

 

Also, if you have been sending unburnt fuel into your cats, one or both of them might be ruined.

You might want to look into replacing the cats if they're OEM anyway. By now, most of the original cats on 308s are done for.

 

JC Whitney has Catco catalytic converters that are CARB approved for the ferrari 308's, and they are only about $65 each. that's what I am going with.

I will let you know it it passes smog.

 

I've had pretty good luck with the CATCO line. Do you know the CATCO #? Are they 6004 or 6904, or something else? Also, Are these cats really CARB approved and legal for sale after Jan '09? There was a big shakedown on the sales of non CARB blessed cats, and they might not sell them to a CA residents.

 

According to the JC Whitney online catalog, as of this week, they state the Catco line is carb approved.

I don't think the smog tech cares if the cat is carb approved or not, he's not required to veify the cat has a carb approval stamped on it, only that the cat is there at that the cat works.

The cat shakeup really affects the muffler shops who sell the cats. I went to one muffler shop and he would not (could not) sell me a cat for the 308 because it was not on his state issued list of approved cats.

 

Hi Richard,
A faulty O2 will cause great anguish. But so will so many other components that can affect emissions. I would suggest start with a raw sample measurement to help you diagnose what's up. To make your cats work right, they need the right AFR, and since CA is holding you / us to these tight tight numbers, everything has to work. The post cat numbers are really tough to interpret. Especially at these levels.

Dirty injectors complicate things too. You can put a fresh set in if they've never been changed just as a matter of course. When they age / clog they stream as opposed to spray. This typically presents as higher HC and hence the raw sample value.

If you want quick and dirty (and least expensive), you might be able to try the "get it hot" approach. Did the test direct you to the pre-conditioning mode after failure? You'll know this by the test taking longer than usual, and a two minute run period. If it did, then that approach is covered.

IMHO: I might point a finger at the O2 sensor if the raw sample looks bad, and the Cat if the raw sample is good. Tweaking the airbox mixture screw is such a weird thing as you are battling the lambda feedback system which takes control. The mixture screw has very little overall impact on emissions when the lambda system is working properly.

The other good thing that comes from this exercise to clean the air is that your car will run great when all of this is dialed in

There are many on F-chat who share your frustrations. Good luck!

 

That's great news! You don't see a CATCO number by chance? I hear you on the smog tech not giving a hoot. I was referring to (as you mentioned) the muffler shops being restricted to get or sell. Do you know if they have the O2 bung installed?

Thanks!

 

Hi Andy,
I just went to the JC WHitney site and copied the following. Can you explain the part about it being CARB approved ( except CA OBD-2 systems)? Isn't that a blatant contradiction? This is what pulled up for an '84 Mondial which is an OBD-2 system??

EPA and CARB approved (except California/EPA OBD-2 systems). Replaces any converter on vehicles with a maximum engine size of 5.9L and a maximum vehicle weight of 5,500 lbs. 14" long overall. Mounting hardware not included. Designed for 1975-1995 cars and trucks.

 

According to wiki OBD-1 was required in calif. in 1988, and OBD-II was required from 1996 on.

Therefore, if a 1986 Ferrari has any OBD hardware, it was installed by the mfg but not required by the state. Finding OBD-II hardware on a 1986 ferrari seems very unlikely.

I have a 1982 308, and it has NO OBD, and has no computer at all since it has a CIS system.

The Catco model at JC whitney was the only cat I could find (aftermarket) that was 1-3/4" inlet and outlet, a 2" would work, but I was looking for an exact fit. And I like the $65 price. If they believe it's legal in CA, and will ship it to me, I will use it.

If you have a 1996-or later car with OBD-II then you have some hoops to jump thru finding a California approved cat, but for an older, pre OBDii car, it should be easier to find a cat. For an 86 Mondial, the Catco should work and should pass smog once the misfire problem is solved.

 

The CATCO unit has an air injection tube, which is consistent with my 1982 308, but the catco does not have an 02 sensor bung, and does not have a thermocouple fitting for the "slow down" sensor system.

The 1982 CA smog regulations do not require any 02 sensor on the 308, since it's not a Lambda CIS system, also the slow down thermocouple is not required to pass smog, it could be installed later after the car passes.

 

Oxygen sensor?? the mixture control system fighting manual tweaking of the mixture screw is a point very well taken. It could be the oxygen sensor has checked out and the mixture is now not under closed loop control.

Having read up up 02 sensors, seems like there is no way to test a suspect sensor, the only way to troubleshoot it is to buy a new one, install it, and see if the problem goes away.

I bought a new Borg Warner 02 sensor on Ebay for $18 and it works fine, 02 sensors are big scam, I see them for $100 to $200 all the time, and they are the same as the $18 version. The voltage levels, wiring, installation thread, and sensor technology are all standarized (to a large extent).

 

my car wasnt originally emissions legal. the second owner made it emissions legal. but installing a cat wasnt enough. his local ferrari dealer did something with the vacuum lines to lean it out. i am not sure what exactly, but my mechanic was scratching his head at my set-up.
my car idled real rough, after i removed the cat, i had him correct all the vacuum lines as well, and now the car idles as smooth as silk.

sounds simple but, check for any vacuum leaks or bad hoses. you never know.
hope this helps

 

Definitely take this seriously. Fixing this first is much more important that getting it to pass smog. It may be nothing, but if not………..

 

Sounds like the CATCO 6004. This lines up up well with everything you've mentioned. I've been studying up on the early 328 late-late 308 emission systems. The overheat is interesting, but I'm primarily looking at the non AIS system with O2. Especially heated O2s. I'm building an emission system and trying to streamline it by using more advanced technology which means less added on stuff.

 

What car are you plugging the Borg Warner O2 into? Is it a heated sensor? I'm finding something is rotten in O2 sensor land when it comes to fast responding heated O2's, and the engineers are hard to find. Basically, you plug in one style of O2 sensor into the ECU made for another style O2, and all is NOT happy.

 

Thank you for correcting me on the OBD levels. That makes sense, and I mis-stated the OBD assignments. I'm finding that regardless of OBD, muffler shops can't use it if it's not CARB blessed for that vehicle. Is this consistent with your understanding? Also, would you define CIS with Lambda controls (O2 sensor with Freq valve and ECU) as being OBD-I?

I had a long and fruitless discussion with the head honcho at CARB regarding the closed door on universal cat purchases started in Jan '09. Their "intent" is good, but the beuracracy and traps created for those with custom engineered systems is a mess. Technically one can buy ANY cat one wants in CA if one is going to a lab for certification, but tell that to a seller distributor that is facing the wrath of the state that Joe Doe at CARB in Sacramento says, "it's fine" and see how eager they are to sell to you.

That $65 price sounds very good. I like the CATCO product 'cause they seem to "light" so well, and you see a pronounced temp increase showing that catalytic function. Also, their techno department is excellent.

 

Absolutely not true...We test them all the time with either a scope or a high impedence DVM.

Again, not true. Their functionality is standardized. The element types, heated/non-heated and other parmameters vary sensor to sensor. With all due respect, a bit more homework is required before making blanket statements like this. There's not a shop worth their salt that's going to slap in a "universal" sensor when an OE unit is still available.

I'm curious...If you don't know how to test an O2 sensor...how do you really know that your $18 BW unit is actually functioning properly?

Best,
David

 

Hey David, I'm still going for my advanced degree in O2's.

I've looked the O2 output on a scope and seen the funky sine wave. I can't make out the sensor information from this other than it's cycling, and the swings are supposed to be (relatively) generous within the 0 to 1v rails. But if I look at it with a high impedance voltmeter, I can easily corrolate high voltage (approaching 1) to rich, and lo voltage (approaching 0)to lean. I guess my point to this is a working O2 by conventional standards will make it run poorly if it's not the right one for the ECU. And the newer fast response heated O2's seem to be really picky with what and how they're connected. Have you come across the O2 heater wires interface? I believe they are all plugged into the ECU.

 

I hope this works out for you. I'd think a leaking injector seal would allow in more air causing a lean condition which the lambda system would try and correct (additional fuel to correct) so the overall effect would just be high idle. ??

Also ---- if by spraying the injectors, the CO goes down, then she was lean to begin with, but what gives with the lambda system ??

I'll be very curious to hear how you get this solved. Best of luck

 

Still thinking about this one - Just looking at the string of events:

Air leak (which creates a lean condition)

So then it is forced rich

idle goes up (which is easily adjusted down)

? Bingo ? It's way rich ?? Can you get a read on what the frequency valve is doing? If this chain of events is right, the freq valve should be high as it's trying to make it rich. This is fairly easy to check.

Do you have steel or brass injectors?


My interest is so high because I've been troubleshooting an intermittent bug for a while with the same lambda compensated system

 

You know that when you are breaking the sound barrier, you are destroying the ozone layer. R12 freon destroys the ozone, methane from cow s**t destroys.....eh, go ahead blow through that sound barrier again.
Seriously, I had a slight miss and was running rich on the Air/Fuel ratio. Tech told me the same thing. Have the tech adjust the A/F ratio till it passes. if he knows what he's doing, he can make it pass. Just got to find the right tech.