FCA Platinum winners: What kept you from 100 points?

Amoungst the good information, there is misinformation shared, by bystanders and not those actively involved.

Ferrari chat does not attract, regularly, or frequently, the senior judges that know and follow the guidelines set.

Take what is said in this forum, with a grain of salt.

 

[Acolyte on] Master, is it true that the key is the toolkit?[/Acolyte off]

Dale

 

John,
I didn't say anything about the original color. What I wrote is the same as what Tom said. You only need to have the car in a period color that Ferrari used.

George

 

Now hear is a really good idea that really needs consideration. An aspect of this that will need clarification is,are points taken off for the condition of an original part and then points added back on for the quality of the original equipment and if so based on what standards. Or should there be created an entirely seperate category for cars entered as "original" with its own standards and conditions. Both of these suggestions a fraught with potential difficulties in setting peramiters for different categories. Four categories might be[1} speed competitions cars [2]road cars [3] road cars with significant speed competitions [4] road cars with signifigant crash repairs. I know, what constitutes "signifigant" is just one issue.Should there be age groups is another? Where, if anywhere, do rebodies and reproductions fit in? As a starting point I think creating an entirely seperate category may be the best way to go. If for no other reason it should require an entirely seperate group of qualified judges. So lets have some discussion of the subject and see where it leads. tongascrew

 

Interesting, I wasn't aware that the different interior designes were age/date specific. Can you tell us the details. Thanks tongascrew

 

I have often heard that restoration competition/awards has destroyed more original cars than anything else.
Clearly some people are far more obsessed with the details than the driving, which is a pity as these cars are created for the driving. A relatively simple sounding solution is to elevate preservation awards above all else.
There does need to be a cutoff on what can be considered preservable, so maybe how the car operates needs to be a criteria for all judging classes. After all if. Aferrari is primarily built for how it goes, then surely how a restored or preserved car goes should be of primary importance in any judging.
As to restored cars, if they are done period correct, those details are probably far harder to get right than a car restored to perfection, so a period correct restoration should give those detail obsessives far more to obsess over.
Period correct restorations are also a great idea as we are presenting a apiece of history with all the faults and foibles of its era.
But one thing has to stop, and that's the forcing of we'll preserved cars being "restored"
These things can only ever be virgin and real once. If what you have is some old metal behind a perfect shines restoration that does not even run properly, what do you really have. What is it indicative of? Certainly nothing Enzo held dear.

One last point on a preservation class. Cars are only new as manufactured, once they hit the road they acquire blemishes or patina. As ferraris are built to be driven, and in period were certainly bought to be driven, is not a driven patinated car more representative of what these car are and we're in period. Additionally things do age, so something that tells the story of its years is far more authentic than what is essentially an idealized recreation slathered over some old metal, might as well go for a tool room copy if that is what you value. BTW I think tool room copies would serves number of interests from racers to even concours showing, it could be its own class, satisfying those who like such things and allowing the preservation of original cars as they are. After all if we're going to obsess over hose clamps and screws, tearing up old cars to make them better than new, are we not already most of the way to a tool room copy.

 

Many of those things are already being done.

As far as restoring good original cars goes there are many examples where owners have been advised by many not to, even a few where it was a condition of sale not to restore when it happened anyway. That after all is the choice of the owner. In cases I am aware of it was not done for show points but for an owner who desired "Perfection". Don't blame the concour community.


As far as many of the stories going around I had lunch at the Cavallino with a man I know who is a very dedicated vintage racer and has owned many great cars but has little interest in showing his cars. He was persuaded to display one at a local show for charity. He regaled the entire table with a tale of the ineptitude of the show judges examining his car. It was a great story but none of it true. I was there. The "Judges" were attendees looking and asking about his car. The first place he got was a peoples choice award, nothing to do with the concours but in an ever growing number of minds that is now more "Real" concours stupidity.

 

I am certain this is true, but I suspect it's also true that premier concours, by their very nature, have a significant (unintended) role in influencing what is "perfection" in the mind of owners. If the concours had a system that properly respected and valued originality, it would almost certainly affect what individual owners strive for (even those owners that never plan to show the car). It would also affect the valuation of truly original cars, which in itself would tend to increase the motivation for preservation.

 

My understanding of concours competition is that the older the car the better off it starts in regards to points. This should balance out the wear and tear flaws.
Pete

 

No. In fact we are specifically supposed to ignore mileage. As far as age, all cars start at 100 pts.

Some clubs adjust for mileage but then you just get people resetting odometers.

 

Oh, that is interesting and IMO makes no sense.

I'm pretty sure (although it has been many years since I knew a bit about this competition) that the Ellerslie Intermarque Concours, Auckland (in New Zealand) competition does factor in the age of the car. I've found proof (that is a first ):

Personally this is how to do it.
Pete

 

Well said

 

So when you race a 2 liter car do they deduct 5 seconds from your lap times so you can stay up with the 3 liter cars?

 

I don't think that someone who can afford an eight figure car needs to be influenced to have an opinion on perfection.

 

???, confused.

What they are trying to do with the age points is give some support to originality instead of everything being restored to brand new and sterile. I think that makes sense.

Plus lets face it a 1920's car is not built anywhere near as well as a 1990's car, ie. door gaps, etc. So to be fair ... otherwise brand new cars would always win OR over restored cars that have been rebuilt as well as a 1990's car. That is not right or correct, the car has been ruined to some degree.
Pete

 

The cars are all in different classes so it doesn't matter. A 166 does not compete with a 365.

 

Arh, understand.

The Ellerslie Intermarque Concours has a masters class and any car can enter and only one winner. That is why that rule makes sense for that competition. I always wanted to win that with my car, but I've moved to Sydney, Australia.
Pete

 

Well there is an overall winner but that is rarely one of the newer cars so a handicap system would be academic. It is not unlike Le Mans though and that was my earlier point. There are class winners and overall winners. There are also awards, pretty coveted too actually for most original, that in the Ferrari club is called a preservation award. We just won our class and the late model preservation award with our TR. The preservation award is far more important to us than the class award because we know the process to get it is far more difficult.

 

Once upon a time, a long, long time ago (say 2000, 2001?), I was negotiating to buy this car,

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/86199-250-pf-coupe.html

From Garry Roberts in Costa Mesa.

(I realize that Sheehan omits Garry’s ownership from his historical record, which I’m sure was a mistake, after all, I saw the car on several occasions at Garry’s shop and he didn’t say anything about Mike, well, that’s not completely true, Garry had a few things to say, but I don’t want to talk out of school, after all, this was a long time ago. However, the reference to the car being painted with a paint brush is true.)

To cut to the chase, the offer on the table was $60,000 for the car with the toolkit, or $50,000 without the toolkit. Needless to say, my jaw hit the floor. I said something along the lines of, “Are you ****ting me?” $10,000 for a POS tool kit? I mean, I saw the tool kit and what a piece of junk.

Somehow, I forget how, this was the first time I met Tom S, and I asked him, “WTF, $10,000 for a crappy tool kit.” Well, you can imagine Tom’s reaction to an original 250 toolkit, which is the same tool kit for a 250 GTO. Tom went on to explain the facts of life. You know, being on the green at Pebble, the fog lifting, the judge, the ribbon, and all that.

At the time, being a Ferrari newbie, I have to admit – it freaked me out. If rich dudes, who could buy and sell me in a New York second, were willing to pay up for a POS tool kit, man, I was way in over my head, way over my head.

So I passed and brought a 1973 ½ 911.

Frankly, I still wish I still had both.

On second thought, I don’t. Life is for the living. We are all tenants on this marble. We all end up at the same place. All that counts is how you go down the road.

So drive she said.

Dale

PS I can't find any pictures of the PF, so I'll throw in a random pic of the 911
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I would argue that owners’ latitude in replacing, rather than preserving, exists because the definition of what is “right” in the Ferrari market is somewhat loosely defined and is defined in a manner that is not consistent with other rare “not making them any more” collectibles. A Ferrari component replacement that is nicely done, even if not a mirror of the original, is difficult to mark down because it is flawless while something that is original and in better condition than it has any right to be for its age will almost certainly be marked down because it has flaws. That whole valuation model is out of line any other rare collectibles I can think of (at least that I could think of in the 15 seconds I spent thinking about other collectibles ).

It is a very different situation in art for example. If masterpiece paintings that have been unnecessarily touched up were held in equal esteem in museums/galleries as untouched originals (and therefore had equal value in the market), then owners of masterpieces would be sprucing them up with reckless abandon to make them look prettier. However, because the art world has the sense to devalue (sometimes drastically) work that has been over-restored or unnecessarily restored, unnecessary restoration doesn’t happen (regardless of the wealth of the owner) except out of ignorance. Avoiding over-restoration of art isn’t just to preserve value, it's also because (most) owners feel they have an implied obligation to be responsible caretakers of masterpieces that are irreplaceable. If a masterpiece has been physically damaged, then repair is absolutely acceptable to save it, but the value does take a hit in the art world because of the repair. In Ferrari judging, it is the opposite – a replacement is usually judged higher than a remarkably preserved (but not flawless) original. My opinion is that the art world’s view on valuation is right.

Car owners can do what they want with their cars, because some view them as cars and not art, but car judging, IMO should find a way to recognize the value of originality in a manner that is consistent with any other collectable that is rare and irreplaceable.

 

Modern concours competitions are restoration firms showing off to gain future customers. Perfectly straight cars, perfect door gaps, rivets dead in line, etc. They stopped being about correctly restoring cars about 30 years ago IMO.

Any 60's Italian car that has perfect door gaps should be marked down for over restoring ...
Pete

 

First, let me say that I'm impressed with the input from many of the oldtimers (+ Bryan P.) contributing to this thread. I usually hang out in the 206/246 forum but I saw this thread high-lighted in Rob's current FChat Newsletter and had to check it out.

The initial question was interesting to me as a Senior Judge for Parker's IAC/PFA and as an FCA member who has enjoyed concoursing since 1976 . . . a 330GT 2+2 (bought from Ed Niles in 1987, 100,000+km, several FCA Platinums and The FCA 2+2 Award) and a 246GTS (bought from FAF Motorcars in 1977, now 74,000+ miles, several Platinums, 2 FCA Dino Awards and Best 6-cylinder Ferrari @ Cavallino in 2010). I have never had a 100 pt. car mainly because my wife and I enjoyed driving both cars . . . not so much now due to physical limitations in dealing with lack of comfort items on the Dino.

I received 97 1/2 pts at Cavallino: -1 for plating (all chrome is original); - 1/2 pt for one of the vent window latches that had popped off and -1 for an inop light. At the 2010 FCA Annual Meet 8 mos. later, I received 95 1/2: -1/2 for the same plating problems, -1/2 for glass (scratch on windshield-different sun angle than at Cavallino?: -1 for overall upholstery condition, dash faded, cracked headrest bezels (interior is original); -1/2 for interior Trim & Emblems (no explanation): -2 for various engine & chassis items - chip on LR wheel, air cleaner nuts wrong color (that's wrong because these came with the car in 1977 and the only replacements available since then are the bright zinc plated nuts which are wrong, no other judge has ever deducted for the dark brass ones currently on the car), distributor label faded (true), air diverter valve and air injection manifold rusted (true) chips on horn trumpet (that's right, I had to take the spare out and the battery cover off, luckily I had detailed the entire spare compartment and repainted the horn trumpets, one of which got a small chip on installation).

The bottom line on all of this is that I really welcome the critique that judges provide. It tells me what I need to do to make the Dino even better . . . if that is my goal. And as a Senior Judge I am sometimes appointed Chief Judge for the class of cars I am judging. I always emphasize to the other two judges on the team to take good notes so I can give feedback to the participants when it's all over. I want owners to learn how to make their cars better from each concours experience if that's what their goal is. Many owners do appreciate the feedback. Hope that helps.
Bill

 

It's hard to know where to draw the line. I've heard of, but haven't really seen, door gap issues on the early cars. My 330 and most others I've seen have perfect door gaps, so Pininfarina seemed to do ok. If I have had to have bodywork repairs done, I can't imagine not wanting the door gaps to be perfect. That being said, I also can't imagine replacing an interior with leather that looks nothing like the original.

 

I bought the car complete with insane books and tools.

Sold the car same week, without accesorries to a guy who didn't want the items and preferred the 10k discount. It was a deal.