By the way, it's not quite 5 to 2. I just suggested finding out what's wrong with the engine before making a decision. Regards, Art S. PS. Post your engine issues on www.tomyang.net - a lot of the guys on there work on their cars and may be able to tell you how to diagnose the engine.
Man, this is a tough one. Here's my two cents worth: If you can do the work on your car yourself, and enjoy it, then you could always just keep it as a project that you can work on from time to time. For me, this requires at least two things, a garage large enought to hold your project, and another car to drive in the mean-time. I guess that's my approach with my 400 GT; I absolutely love the car, but honestly expect it to cause me a great deal of trouble at some point. And, as painful as it is, the car just won't ever be worth that much to most people, present company excluded. So I've got my other cars to drive if/when things go sour. I must confess, I am sort of looking forward to the day that I can dig into the inner workings of the engine and see just how cool it really is! Now, If I could only have one car to play with, I'd get rid of the questionable one and find one that is in good shape. And to speak selfishly; if you do decide to part out the car, please let everyone know, I could come up with a good list of parts I need! Best of luck with your decision! Joe Bergmann
When your car was on e-bay I was also watching it with some mild curiousity, but for different reasons than you. All along I saw this as a parts car and nothing more... now that the car in SoCal is gone, are there any other parts cars on the market now? There's money to be made if you have the inclination, space, and patience. Brennan '84 400i #47583 ps: my shopping list includes 1 damage-free TRX wheel, heater control valves, and LHS hood prop.
I'm going to investigate the head gasket thing a little further before I make my decision. If they're toast, expect the car to show up on the market soon. If not, the decision really becomes tough... I have pretty much eliminated the option of parting it out since I just don't have the time or space. I've been renting a storage unit to keep my Alfa in while I work on the Ferrari, so space is at a bit of a premium as it is. I know the whole is worth less than the sum of its parts, but I just don't think I can go that route. Nobody has commented on the electrical problems - any idea what I'm in for there? The right headlight doesn't pop up, the signals don't work, the dash lights don't work, the heater/fan/ac doesn't work, and neither do the trunk release, fuel filler release, or the hood release. The hood release appears to have been cut open with some combination of sawzall and blowtorch. And those are just the things I remember.
The Ferrari shop manual page b44 shows how to pressure check the head after it is installed, I have never seen that done on other engines and there is a comment, direct quote "Slight sweating along the gasket outer edge is permissible" I do not know if you would call your leak "sweating" but apperantly Ferrari doe not worry about external leak some.
Interesting... I do not yet have a shop manual, unfortunately. Are you supposed to torque these heads at a regular interval? It is recommended for Alfas, and a 400i may be similar since it's an aluminum DOHC engine. The first time, the leak was way more than "sweating" but the reappearance of it might be slight enough to warrant that word.
My manual just says to retorque heads at 3,000 miles then I do not see it mentioned again. It is a big job Maybe it was not done on your car? These cars being grey market might not have had dealer support? If you still want to presue this road and you do not mind the time I would try retorgueing the heads, it could be just a big waste of time, your call. 75 FTpounds for the head bolts
Put it back on ebay and find a nice driver for around the $20K as you said earlier. Listen to these guys. Run from this project. It a beautiful model but not worth enough to fix. You will be over your head. Also keep in mind (if you can afford it) keep this car until you buy another 400 in case that one needs a few parts. Then when you are done....sell it back on ebay. V..
I think you should do this: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46538&highlight=400i+GTO
Whats $7500 buy anyone these days, a Geo? You could just write it off and tell yourself you got it for nothing, then go back out in the garage and look at it as a free car? You bought it thinking the motor was good. If your honest and try to put it back up on eBay, youll be lucky to get half your money back after you mention the engine leaking coolant. So your only real option would be to part it out, or fix it. Remember that a lot of the money others say a car costs, is money spent at dealerships. If your doing the work, youll save a great deal of money. And even if you decide to part it out, fixing the engine or determining whats wrong could make you more money later. While its probably realistic to spend $25K at a dealer on an overhaul, it dont cost a dime to pull the heads off and see whats there. Just labor. I would at least dig into the engine a ways before making any deeper decisions. Have you done a compression or leak down test on the motor?
The engine seemed perfectly good when I got it, as the leak didn't appear for another month at least. I think the seller was honest with me, but it seems that the condition took a sudden and unfortunate turn for the worse. And, aside from the leak, the engine still seems very healthy. There are a few wisps of smoke when it is started from cold, but that disappears quickly. It starts easily even on cold days, it runs smooth, and it's very powerful. $7500 is too much to simply forget about. How much could I expect to get for the whole car? Even at $7500, someone could make a lot of money parting it out if they had the time and space. snj5, I know you were probably kidding, but I actually considered something like that as one of my options. If I decided the body was un-fixable, I had contemplated using the guts in a Daytona or GTO or California rep. The previous owner did a compression check and says it was good. I'm not familiar with leakdown testing, so someone will have to explain that to me.
If you are experiencing coolant leakage you might try pressure testing the cooling system. It's simple to do and doesn't involve a lot of disassembly. Just pump 'er up to 15psi or so and look for the leaks. DO NOT TAKE THE HEADS OFF!!! unless you are certain that is the problem and are prepared for the ever expanding, never to be finished project. Head gaskets alone aren't cheap and there are an amazing number of parts in the way and other gaskets and seals to buy as well. The 400i engine is pretty complicated and not a beginner project.
Its an old Ferrari - anyone who knows cars from this 'era' knows that you'll sink the same 'old-car-maintenance' money into a 308 QV, a TR, a Boxer, a Mondial, etc. I wouldn't be discouraged from the 'I-spent-a-lot-of-money' crowd. If you have a car from the 1980s, you're going to spend a lot of money anyway if the previous owner didn't (and MANY didn't, that's why they sold it to YOU!). If you WANT to spend the money, by all means please do so. I think 400is are terrific cars, and I wish I had the cash for a 5-speed to park beside my 308. I don't think its a parts' car just because it has a leaking head gasket - they're 21 years old, they're rubber, they're old, they need replacement.....okay.....and? You were under the assumption that you would NEVER have to do this, at some point, in the car's lifespan? If you're looking at a 21+ year-old-car, your mind should immediately race to the LONG list of rubber items that immediately need replacement (if not already done so): engine gaskets, hoses (FUEL, coolant, air, brake lines, etc.), shocks, suspension grommets, door/window seals, tires, etc. etc. etc. etc.
I'm definitely with the don't start fixing it crowd, but I wouldn't be at all hard on yourself. It was probably a good gamble when you took it, but sometimes you come out on the wrong side of good odds. Had the engine been strong and no other issues popped up you might have gotten the body work done for 10 to 15k. That said, I disagree with the notion that all of these cars will require work so there's no loss to starting the extra work now. Assuming that's true (and it hasn't been in my case), then you have 15 to 20 odd thousand in known costs plus the stuff that allegedly is inevitable. Can you even know at this point whether the clutch is bad? Third gear synchro (assuming its a stick)? Don't kick yourself for what's done, but don't let the difficulty drive you into a bad position.
Michael, I'm not sure if you read the whole thread. its a 21 year old car that may have leaky heads, some differed mainenance and has been lightly ROLLED!! Other than those issues it's great. Considering a decent 5 speed that needed some recommisioning sold on ebay for $13k, it's tough to justify financialy and must be restored as a labor of love, stored in hopes of an improved market for 400s or parted out. Regards, Art S.
This seems like it would be a fun project, if you had lots of time to kill... You own a ferrari 12 cylinder for less than $7500. With an engine that at least runs... There are worse things to do in life than tinker with a ferrari motor . If the $7500 is a significant amount of money to you, sell it. If its not, have fun! Take the motor apart (if you have some skills, and lots of tools, and a bunch of buddies). Do a leakdown, if its decent, changing the headgaskets might be doable. Easy? Hell no! Potentially might ruin the motor? Absolutely. So what. Worst case scenario, restore the EXTERIOR of the motor, beautify it, and make it into a work of art. Place in living room, enjoy! Other option. Sell the motor to some guy building a "replica whatever." Even requiring work, that motor might net you several thousand dollars. The ferrari bitsa like seats, dash, etc - woud likely sell fast... Option 3. Take it to your local chevy mechanic (I hear Brian Crall cringing as I write this ), and see what they can do with it. They might tinker with it for free, just for fun. Might they f**k up the motor? Sure. But then again, it isn't working in the first place! Option #4. Take it to a techincal school, specializing in car repair. Let them work on it for "free." Might take a year or two, but they might make it look reasonable, for free. The kids at these schools might jump at the chance to work on a ferrari...
I read the thread, every post......what's your point? The buyer knew that the car was rolled - and knew full well that it, therefore, had 'accident history'. This completely negates the idea of this car being purchased by the owner for investment purposes. If it's not an investment buy, I assumed this was all being done as a labor of love or some other personal motivation aside from dollars-and-cents. SO, prior to purchase, the buyer knew beforehand that he was looking at repair/replacement of Ferrari bodywork. He still knew he was buying a Ferrari.....and an old one at that. The engine still runs, he didn't throw a rod or break a timing belt. It leaks a little bit of coolant and the coolant has not blended into the oil system. This is not a 'terminal' situation. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. He also mentions that with the purchase price of the car came a new roof section - probably the rarest seperate piece of bodywork to find for a 400i. With the Factory anticipating the inevitable 'fender bender', I'm sure there's a pile of quarter panels lying somewhere (or there used to be at one time). The hard part would be finding them....there are much-worse treasure hunts. It sounds to me as though he has the rarest stuff in-hand, today, to move forward.
Michael, The owner thought he was buying a car the needed a new roof attached and addressing some differed maintenance including some electrical work (thanks Simon!). Now he's got a potentially bad engine on top of that. The point is he can have a starting point much farther in the process - i.e. a car that has maybe one or two of the listed issues for not much more money. As we don't know what's wrong with the engine (minor or major) I suggested finding out before making a decision. Assuming it's major, then it becomes pointless as there is no sentimental reason to fix this particular 400. Oh, regarding the roof - they are probobly one of the easier parts to find considering how many cars have been converted to convertibles (though I think this roof came from another car being parted out). Just so we're clear, my heart is with you - it says save the car. Unfortunately, logic is against you. That said, the reason most of the vintage cars are still around is because someone went with heart over logic in each case. Regards, Art S.
AMEN! I'm looking at a car right now, not an Fcar, that if I pull the trigger I'll be so upside down in it'll be a joke. However it is 1 of only 4 examples left in the world. Somehow I find myself being pulled into the preservation of history and the love of a unique design.
I originally bought this car thinking: "Here's a good car that crashed for only $6600. I can buy a windshield for a grand or so, graft the other roof on, repair the dents, get it painted, and voila, I'm driving a V12 Ferrari for 10 grand. Sure service costs will be high, insurance will be expensive, it will consume vast amounts of fuel, and it'll always be an S-title car, but nice ones are going for 20k or more. This is a no-lose situation because I've got 10 grand worth of leeway before I have to worry about being upside down." How naiive of me. When I discovered the electrical failures and a couple other minor things, I was a little disappointed but still optimistic about the project overall. When I discovered that parts were less available and more costly than I thought, I still wasn't too fazed. But when the puddle of antifreeze appeared on the floor is when the wind really went out of my sails. I haven't conclusively found that it is in fact the head gaskets, but that has been my suspicion from the beginning. Could I fix blown head gaskets? Sure. It looks like a nightmare of a job if for no other reason than the ungodly amount of plumbing I would have to remove to get to the heads, but I have no doubt of my ability to make the repair. The optimist in me says it might be a good reason to check and adjust valve clearance and the timing chain, which will need doing sooner or later anyway. But now I'm starting to contemplate the 'what ifs'. If the head gaskets weren't attended to, what else might have been neglected? Is this thing a ticking time bomb? With parts costing what they do, I could see this easily passing the figure that I originally thought was the break-even point. Plus, reasonably nice cars aren't necessarily worth what I originally thought. I don't mind spending or losing some money to be a Ferrari owner, but there's limits. I haven't reached any conclusions about what I'm going to do with my car, but I will say this: All you 400i owners, take good care of them. They are glorious cars and you can't afford to let them fall into a state of disrepair.
