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Ferrari 250 GTO - Understanding The Model

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rossocorsa1, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

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    #1 Rossocorsa1, Jun 22, 2018
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    Recent market developments have increased my desire to better understand the 250 GTO. For those who are well versed in the fascinating nuances of this great model, can you please address the following questions? I think many on here who are hungry to learn more will greatly appreciate it.

    1 - Of the two body styles (Series I and Series II) which is commonly considered the more desirable?

    2 - Of the Series II body cars, how many classes exist? It’s my understanding that certain cars were originally born from the factory with the Series II body while others were originally Series I cars that were later modified and/or converted to a Series II body.

    3 - Appreciating that all 250 GTO’s are incredibly valuable, which specific cars, whether due to provenance, condition, originality, etc., are considered the greatest, 1% of the 1%, “holy grails” of the model?

    I know many of us will appreciate these questions answered. Thank you.
     
  2. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

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    Hundreds of threads about the 250GTO in the vintage etc area - take a look there
     
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  3. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

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    Yes, I understand that there are many, but rather than hunt through endless threads for answers, I thought it would be helpful to post a new one with these very specific and fundamental questions about the model.
     
  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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  5. miurasv

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  6. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

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  7. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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  8. miurasv

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    #8 miurasv, Jun 23, 2018
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    250 GTO considered by many to be the most beautiful car ever made???? I know many people write that but they are quite often non motoring journalists. The GTO is of course one of the greatest Ferraris and cars of all time but I would say for different reasons than its beauty.

    Please can you clarify what you mean by 3765LM and 4561SA being among the purest of GTOs when really they are not GTOs? 3765LM does have a significant racing history, initially as a 4 litre car coming 2nd OA and 1st IC at the 1962 Nurburgring 1000KM and later less significantly after the car was converted with the 250P engine from 0796 and a 5 speed GTO gearbox effectively making it into something else. 3765LM doesn't have a 4 litre engine in it or its original 4 speed gearbox though an original 4 litre block was found for it but I don't know what the rest of the engine was made from. Perhaps somebody here knows?
     
  9. DWR46

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    Steve: The last time I saw 3765, it did have a 4 liter motor. I am not sure of the source, but my memory seems to recall the owner found a NOS Type 163 block to build the engine around.
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Thanks, Dyke. What box does it now have?
     
  11. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Steve: Do not recall. There was a article about the car in Cavallino a few years ago. I am sure it tells us.
     
  12. miurasv

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    IIRC at the time of the article 3765 had the 250 engine in it and had the 4 litre engine on a stand. I'll have to try and find it. Perhaps Dave knows?
     
  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I feel the GTO is among the most beautiful cars ever made. Further Pourret/ Bluemel list the 330 GTO's as GTO's fitted with 4 litre engines IIRC so despite the LM and SA designation, bearing in mind the gto was itself based on the SA (certainly parts of the bodywork and the chassis) I think it would be a truly long bow to draw to say they aren't GTO's. Even the 330LMB can be argued to be based upon the GTO and hence why its included in GTO books. Anyways #4561SA was never raced but had a very pure existence and while it was almost written off in 1965 it was rebuilt at the factory in period and remained pretty pure AND #3765LM was modified by Ferrari itself with a 250P engine (IMO improving it) and has spent decades with Jack Reuter, Fred Leydorf and Jim Jaegar thus protecting it from well meaning but flawed restorations. These are just my opinions, nothing more, nothing less.
     
  14. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

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    I have a question about the Series 2 body--is there a picture of a clay model of it? Did Pininfarina have a wind unnel at that time or access to one? I am wondering if the Pininfarina -designed series 2 had that much better aero rating than the '62 Series 1 which was fashioned on the run so to speak, being run in the autostrada night after night with a different nose each time and the run timed between two points to see which nose worked best. I think Pininfarina was deathly afraid that the Bizzarrini-deesignd Series I would be a more successful Ferrari race car than the cars they designed, proving you dont need a design house to do a race car
     
  15. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Timmy: There is no relationship between the 400 SA and the 250 GTO chassis other than being front engined, and general suspension layout. I know of very few pieces (other than misc hardware) that are identical between the cars. I do not want to start the argument over again, but as far as Keith and Jess go, don't believe everything you read. The factory NEVER referred to the 4 liter cars as GTO's.
     
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  16. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Fair enough, I stand corrected. Thanks for sharing your knowledge
     
  17. readplays

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    PPP
     
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  18. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    3765 has been restored once, in the late 1980s. At the time it carried the patina of any other 60s Ferrari that had been looked after and never abused.
    For the restoration, the decision was made to return it to the specification of its most significant 'moment in time', the 1962 24 Hours of Le Mans.
    To this end, the owner found an original Tipo 163 block through a friend and located parts to build a 4-liter engine.

    At this time the horizontal slot modification to the front end was changed back to the original 3 'D' slots.
    It has always been my understanding that the slot was cut as a direct result of the sand intake/cooling issues during the 62 LM race. If someone knows more, I'd love to hear it.

    3765 ran at Mid-Ohio in the vintage races in about 1991. The owner remarked at the time that he was hitting 150 mph on the back straight consistently during lapping. I don't know that it's seen any vintage racing since then. It did participate in the GTO Reunion in 2007. While I'm sure people ran hot laps in their cars on the Laguna Seca day, it's not the same thing as vintage racing.

    To my knowledge there has never been any accident damage of any kind, road or race.

    When its career as an SF competition car ended and it was sold on to a privateer in 1963, the factory removed the original 4-liter engine and 4-speed gearbox and replaced it with a 3-liter motor (from #0796) and a 5-speed gearbox. The original 4-liter engine was no longer with the car but it did leave the factory with the second engine Ferrari installed in it, #0796. This is the engine Ferrari sold it with so the argument can be made it then became the 'original engine'.
    After its restoration, 3765 carried the restoration 4-liter engine for a number of years in the 90s before that engine was pulled and put on a stand. 0796 (the 3-liter engine) was re-fitted as it is more tractable for road driving.

    Tim, Dyke has done the heavy lifting on this car, research-wise. He is of course right. He's seen the factory build sheets and 3765LM is a 330 LM rather than a GTO.
     
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  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    3765LM.

    I wonder where the original 4 litre engine and 4 speed gearbox are? Might Ferrari have put them in another car and renumbered them?
     
  20. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    It seems that could be a strong possibility. AFAIK, they were only used for the '62 Nurburgring and Le Mans races- and Le Mans was a DNF due to sand ingestion in the radiator(!).
    In the same way that engine 0796 had a previous life, the original 4-liter engine 3765 may have soldiered on in some other guise. It would be interesting to find out.
     
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  21. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Dave: You are correct about the block coming from PPP. Thanks for refreshing my memory. The engine and gearbox 3765 used at Le Mans did indeed reappear in another car.
     
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  22. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

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    FWIW- the 2420MM chassis(used in the 4-liter cars)used 90MM, non butted frame tubing, where as the 2400MM, 3-liter cars, used 80 MM butted tubes("They" tried this first in "SEFACs", and a couple of other "specials" it appears-from what I've seen)...The frames are not similar in much ways at all...aside from bore centers dimension, same is true of the engines....4 liter cars have incredible torque...in 2nd gear, I was going 30mph....mashed the gas, and shifted at over 95...with some room to spare...This torque had a downside: all of the cars with comp motors that I've seen required additional plates welded to both the front, AND the rear faces of the "head" cross member piece for the frames-they cracked 'em....all of them...necessitating additional strengthening with these plates. just old musings...
     
  23. miurasv

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    #23 miurasv, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
    You must be referring to 3765LM when it had a 4 litre engine fitted? It was the only car in this group with a 2420mm wheelbase. 4561SA wheelbase is 2450mm and the 330 LMB = 2500mm. Confused.

    Edit. Perhaps was it 3673SA which would also have a 2420mm wheelbase which would explain the non butted tubing as wasn't a comp. car but a 400 Superamerica with SWB body?
     

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