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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 134282, Apr 20, 2004.
For sure. Complete with Rosebud Racing Team logo on the side.
Re: GTO v. LM. The LM is extremely hot, very noisy, and has a gearbox that's hard to master. My buyer of 5909, Sonny Bono, destroyed the gearbox inside of a month. The GTO,imho, is considerably more pleasant to drive. Just my 2c.
Ed is exactly correct. The LM is very much pure race car, considerably quicker than the GTO (8 seconds at Laguna Seca), much less comfortable, and more difficult to live with. The GTO is one of those rare cars that is everything it is "cracked up" to be. GTO's make any driver look great, easy to drive in all conditions, no problems with controls, never surprise you. I have been lucky enough to spend lots of time in both on public roads over the years. VERY DIFFERENT cars.
letting someone take photos of your car can be dangerous to its' health and security
digital photos may contain GPS coordinates ( if not disabled )…. if posted to the internet... allowing anyone in the world to look up the exact location of the car at the time the photo was taken... especially anyone looking for anything of value to steal
That's why God made insurance.
Believe me, someone who can afford to own a 250 GTO for example, he has the correct security measures!
it 's amazing how compliant security measures become when a gun is held to their head... keys are found quickly and doors opened... notification of authorities slow... once gone recovery can become almost non existant… settlements absurdly out of line with values... location may also contain things of value other than what is in photo... photo has the potential identifying location a high value target
Curious as to which one this is...
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A car such as a GTO has maybe 50 potential buyers worldwide and anything less than 100% usable will only be of interest to someone without the billion dollar nett worth required to buy one. Much better business would be stealing a few dozen modern Lambo's and Ferrari's, they are much easier to pass off since the individual cars are nowhere near as well known. The last few stolen classic Fezza's have been limited to a 500TRC that is currently before the German courts and the 375 Plus that Jacques Swaters tried to pass off with a fake chassis number, otherwise I can't think of too many and that is likely because they are simply too well known and thus impossible to sell. Now another illegal business would be to fake some of the missing classic cars and pass them off but I digress, there is little money in stealing anything that well known, would be like stealing the Mona Lisa, sure as hell wouldn't ever be able to sell it. Just my 2 cents.
While I think Cheesy2's concerns about internet photogrpahy are slighty overstated - I certainly don't put geo tags on any pictures I post of my car unless it's somewhere that I have been and and am not likely to go back to in the near future, I think there is a still a risk in the theft of classic Ferraris. Yes they are difficult to move on but there is still the possibility of them being stolen and then then a ransom demanded from the owner for their return? The recent case of the chopped roof, osterich interior Gullwing bewing stolen in Germany shows that rare/ unique cars are being stolen. No idea if it was recovered although the owner put up a significant reward for it's recovery.
That is all fair enough, I was making my comments in light of it being a GTO thread AND pondering the fact we know were most of the worlds great artifacts are, they are on long term display at x,y and z museum. As one moves up the value chain and something becomes rarer it must make it harder to sell or even have in your possession without raising Interpol flags whereas 1300 300SLs were made and a creative crook would just keep changing the vin they were claiming until some sucker buys it. Same could be said of a common Picasso drawing or even a dowdy Monet but the minute you get into the truly rare say a Monet Waterlillies or Pont a Neuf or a GTO, any expert worth the label would have you on a one way ride to jail the minute the crook tries to get his or her pay day. That said there is a lucrative trade in nearly new blingy stolen cars, Gallardos, 458s et al esp. in parts of Eastern Europe but the truly sharp end of collectibles are just impossible to move so most criminals avoid.
500 TR, not TRC.
tell that to the owner of 330 LMB 4619sa...stolen nearly 50 years ago. it is still missing .... my point was more global than just the car… the photo location may contain other things of value that a thief could find lucrative and easier to dispose of...
Back in the 1960s and 1970s it was relatively common for Ferrari's to be stolen, they often had low value so weren't exactly stored well, look at the 250GTO that famously sat outside for a few years and nobody cared. Also the experts and ability to access knowledge were nothing compared to today so rather an apples and pears situation. IF a $40 million car was stolen, the owner would get a press release out, every news channel would publish it and everyone would know its hot, too hot to make anything off of.
wishful thinking.. the real world doesn't work that way nor does. the collector community work that way.... this site has several posts about cars being stolen and never to be seen again... there is a level of corruption apparent in the collector community... there are those that have knowledge and will not reveal it to aid with recovery... if it were true cars like 4619 would have been recovered years ago... there are a lot of people with knowledge with tarnished and banged up halos
Not exactly arguing with you but #4619SA is a known entity and indeed the issue is that it may not have been stolen, we don't know why it sat at Don Fongs shop for so long when supposedly owned by Blumenau, why he took more than 30 years to complain about the theft or why when it was stolen, the reports noted Fong as the owner. As for his claim that #4619sa went around the world, the theft supposedly happened in '77, the car didn't leave the USA until '89 and has been on display in California for much of the period from the early '90s until mid 00s so why not act during the periods it was in the USA? very strange. Compare that to Swaters who was up to his neck in the theft of #0384AM in the late '80s, documents proving he knew it was #0384AM but his evidence to the FBI showing he lied showing that sure it can happen but the '70s and '80s had the benefit of some Ferrari's being worth little, Swaters claimed #0384AM was worth $100k USD in '89 for example. Further you had to know a Ferrari expert, or be one, and rely on telexes, telegrams, faxes or good old snail mail so in the months between sending your letter to ask about the theft, the car could easily be moved, converted or whatever. Now its all pretty instant. That said I don't necessarily disagree with much of what you are saying.............
Everybody cared except the owner who was daft. Many Ferraristi tried to acquire the car or at least implore the owner to store it properly to no avail.
This is the car you are talking about, 3589 GT, taken yesterday.
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Magnificent, thanks for posting Marcel.
You are not properly comprehending what has been written and taking simplistic view
4619 is reasonably well known, yet it was overlooked as being a stolen car by many in the industry... there have not been any reports of seeing the car since it was secreted from Blackhawk... little interest in reporting stolen cars... at one point there was a $1,000,000 reward for locating the car
it didn't spend much time at Fong's... refer to postings of documents and posts by Ed Niles here for a time line
read the posted documents here, and interview on Jalopnik, the theft was immediately report to authorities when it was stolen... it has been actively sought since theft
there are posts here that refer to its time and claimed owner in Europe and potential owner in Korea which should kind of qualify the car as a world traveler
the car had forged documentation... it is hard for the FBI or anyone to claim ownership / pick up a car with documents that don't match the car... its not easy get a court to reconcile the forgery
the theft took place before the internet, there was not a speedy way to widely communicate the theft....
the courts have reconciled the forgery, unfortunately a search warrant cant be used as a hunting license
Cheesey: Not all of what you say is correct. I was involved with this car (4619) in the late 1970's, and missed buying it by only two hours (Joe Marchetti got there first). All during these years, the car and its whereabouts were well known to everybody in the American Ferrari community. The car appeared at numerous Ferrari Club meets in both the Southeastern and the Midwestern parts of the United States. Yet NOBODY ever raised any concerns about it being stolen. It was in plain sight to both any previous owners and law enforcement. It and it's owners were mentioned in numerous Club magazines, and again, nobody said anything. I have no comment on who is/was the legal owner in the past or today, but it was NOT hiding in that period.
There's already a completely separate thread for 330 LMB 4619.
Suggest to post there.
No connection to 250 GTO's (for which this thread here is).
See post #45 here:
My stomach really hurts.