Ferrari 275P #0816 at Artcurial | FerrariChat

Ferrari 275P #0816 at Artcurial

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Timmmmmmmmmmy, Aug 26, 2017.

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  1. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    2016 saw Artcurial set new records when they offered the Bardinon collections 335s and it was sold to a collection in Ohio, setting a new world record for a car sold (in Euro's). At the time the car was said to have sold to settle debts (death taxes etc.) that the collection owed. Artcurial have announced that the headline car for 2018 will be the same collections Ferrari 275P, the very car that won Le Mans in 1964 and this will no doubt set the market alight. Whether or not a small Fantuzzi bodied rear engined V12 and Le Mans winning success has the pull of the glamorous Scaglietti bodied/ front engined 335s will be known in early Feb. 2018.
     
  2. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    Sad to see that they are not keeping what's left of the collection together... This will be an interesting one to watch...
     
  3. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The greatest collection slowly dying.

    Very sad.
     
  4. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Either of two drivers here, France does have some pretty strong death taxes, up to 45% of estates value and they also have laws that means that the estate must be split amongst ALL children you may have. The latter is quite different to other nations where you can stipulate via your will who will get what from your estate or in the tradition of the great British way, it automatically goes to your oldest son. This Napoleonic code can be seen in the wine world where one vineyard in Burgundy (Clos Vougeot) which went from one owner in 1889 to 80 + owners today although these codes can be superseded by placing assets in a company or trust and allocating shares or beneficiary rights. Hopefully the sale of the 335s and the 275P will settle any outstanding taxes and/ or settle any pay outs to a heir and the rest of the collection will stay whole but if not hopefully the car goes to an end user who cares for it as they have. Beyond this specific sale, the key message is to get your affairs settled because we can never know when our time is up and either get your assets into a trust or at least get a will and get agreement among heirs where necessary because even a will is contestable.
     
  5. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    For sure the 'kids' were prepared to deal with all of this. Maybe they simply do not want the cars anymore and would rather see them in the hands of people who will appreciate them, although that was not the case last time I checked: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144354026-post13.html

    I think the 335S sale took care of most of the tax issues, but who knows... In fact some renowned FChatters will probably have a better idea...
     
  6. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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  7. ERA

    ERA Karting

    Dec 21, 2015
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    The family has different views on the cars. They could have created a foundation to keep all cars under the same roof but this would have implied the two brothers and one sister to all agree on it. Some of the cars, the TR, but especially the GTO 64 have changed hands without a clear agreement of other family members to say the least.
     
  8. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Exactly what I had heard, thanks.
     
  9. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Latest news is that it is estimated at 28 - 32 million Euro which when added to Artcurials 20% BP and converted to US$ = $37 - 46 million. So a possible new world record for a car that cant be driven on the street, maybe, maybe not.
     
  10. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    I think you can drive it in the street, it's well within the age where minimal mods if any are needed for most countries. Would you want to prep it for street driving? That's a whole other question...
     
  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    A 275P isn't any less streetable than a 335S and 0674 seemed to do ok at auction.
     
  12. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Fair enough, my comment was
    A - not intended to be an absolute statement, more that it shouldn't be a car you would buy if that was your sole intention (A 250GT SWB would be much better at a quarter of the price),
    B - what my source said and,
    C - my only reference to road driving driving would be that the 250P was based on the Dino SP and that was itse;f based on the same chassis as the 156 "sharknose" GP car as discussed in John Godfreys book on the Dino SP, which states that they are difficult to set up and nowhere near as easy to drive as a GT or even the Testa Rossa. Further reference is a fellow Fchatter noted the closely related 250LM was good on a track but again not a car you would want to drive on the road for any length, especially with a passenger. Mind you that is in keeping with the FIA's move away from the dangerous road based events (Mille Miglia etc.) to fully and semi permanent road courses and the World Championship events still using open roads were the Targa Florio and the GT only Tour de France in '63 with even Le Mans featuring a track like surface thus cars were becoming ever more specialised with tires, aerodynamics and suspension set ups purely track focused, I have read elsewhere that contemporaries such as the Birdcage Maseratis were also not usable on the road.

    Cheers
     
  13. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    20%?
     
  14. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Sorry meant to type 12% BP which sounds more like it.
     
  15. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    According to some key players in the industry, who I just met this weekend in England, they value 0816 at approximately US$ 25 M.
    I tend to agree.

    Marcel Massini
     
  16. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    A series of law suits followed.
    All rather tragic, considering the importance of the former collection.

    Marcel Massini
     
  17. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
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    It's sad that the collection has to be broken apart to pay taxes on something that already has been paid for.

    Is there a way around that in the US? I think nothing should be paid unless it's sold by whomever inherited it, but surely there must be a way around that law for people that just want to keep things the way they were. Profiting and not paying taxes is one thing, but keeping what your family had and not actually making money is different imo...
     
  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Most of the mega-collections in the US are now in trusts and you can even see this when they are shown at events by Scuderia N.E., Rocky Mountains (Trust or Museum?) etc. which are largely established to try to avoid death and sales taxes which can be applicable depending on where the trust is registered. Less importantly they are sometimes useful to ensure that they are not split up, although the argument can be made that the splitting up of collections ensure that other collections can be established. All of this is moot because this was a French collection and the current succession laws were established by Napoleon to make things fairer than the previous system which gave everything to the eldest son. This could have been resolved like any familial situation but only if they could get agreement between all of the heirs, including perhaps establishing a trust in Switzerland that would have owned the cars although the question would remain, How do you pay out a heir that wants their piece of the action in cash? no problem if you have a major portion in cash or other liquid assets but if all or the majority of value is in the cars and someone wants cashing out....................... And that doesn't even cover the issue of death taxes in France which are up to 45% and must be paid. Could possibly have donated the cars to a museum, maybe the National Auto Museum in Mulhouse, Alsace and that MAY have avoided the death taxes?
     
  19. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Yeah I can see why they would value it as such, FWIW I like the style of these 250/275/330Ps but I can see that people would pay more for a Barchetta Testa Rossa, 250 GTO or 330P3/4 series due to their looks or any front engined sportscar for its added usability. Still a glorious car and will be fascinating to watch.
     
  20. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    Thanks for the info...I should probably read more into it. I'm glad there is something in the US at least that can lower the negative issues that come up when someone dies. It already is a stressful time for many regardless of the assets themselves.
     
  21. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Good points. Hiring a good attorney while still alive to advise on estate planning is super important for and strikes me that for many cases its actually better to gift much of the estate while alive, this lowers tax burdens if done properly AND ensures that the estate is enforced by the intentions of the giver rather than action by a litigious spouse or child. My 2 cents
     
  22. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    From what I remember regarding the auction of the 335S, the government demanded that the sale be conducted by a French auction house, and that there was some sort of law in France that allowed any French museum to preempt the sale of any car belonging to a French collection. Basically, they have the preference over the sale of the car, even post hammer, as I recall correctly. It's very strange, but it means that museums are in a privileged position to acquire the car in any case.
     
  23. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    ...by Artcurial, in conjunction with Retromobile, on february 9th. Driven by Guichet/Vaccarella, it won the 1964 24 hours of Le Mans, being the last FACTORY-entered Ferrari to have won the 24h hours.
    It is an ex Pierre Bardinon collection car.
    Rgds
     
    Newjoint likes this.
  24. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Another thread? See vintage market.
     
  25. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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