News

Ferrari 308 GTS Vetroresina Prototype

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by steven handley, Jul 2, 2018.

  1. steven handley

    Jul 2, 2018
    8
    Full Name:
    steven handley
    Hi i am new to forums, but thought I would give it a go.
    Would anyone know if there was an actual Ferrari 308 GTS Vetroresina made at the Maranello factory ?
    I purchased for my collection a few years ago a 308 Vetroresina and its a GTS not a GTB, so in theory the first GTS ever made ??

    If anyone has any info on this car please feel free to help me out.

    Kind regards Steve.
     
  2. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
    5,816
    #2 Ferrari 308 GTB, Jul 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
    http://www.glass308.com/default.aspx

    Interesting ,never heard of that one. Try contact the above , if Marcel doesn't get back to you.

    Care to post the chassis #

    Or did you just buy a model for your collection?
     
  3. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,269
    FRANCE
    #3 nerofer, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
    There was one such car (a "Vetroresina GTS") put up for sale at an auction by Artcurial, which we discussed in details two or three years ago; they claimed it was a prototype. If my memory serves me well, it didn't even have a chassis number (??). They claimed that, according to its former owner, it was "legit", has been inspected by "someone" (who?) from the factory, and that its "Classiche Certification" was "in processing" at the time of the sale. However, it didn't have a valid title.
    I'm always "somewhat suspicious" about such claims for Ferraris. The factory would know, of course. Maybe the "Classiche Certification" has been processed...if there actually was one going.

    https://www.artcurial.com/en/lot-1976-ferrari-308-gts-berlinette-polyester-prototype-vendu-sans-titre-de-circulation-prototype


    Rgds
     
  4. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    13,592
    Please post a good quality photo showing stamped chassis number (17-digit VIN, right rear engine compartment) as well as the actual ID tag.

    Marcel Massini
     
  5. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,269
    FRANCE
    Marcel, For What it Is Worth...

    If it is indeed the car from the "Artcurial" auction at Le Mans Classic in 2014 (see the link that I have posted above) it had NO VIN, and NO CHASSIS NUMBER; in the link, there is a picture of the plate on the steering column: there is no VIN.
    If my memeory serves me well, four years ago I saw the chassis bar, in the engine compartment, and there was no chassis number also.

    Rgds
     
  6. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    13,592
    Artcurial text states: "This car was recovered by a collector who put on some registration numbers and used it, till it was confiscated by the Italian authorities."

    For sure there is SOME number somewhere……… go find it.
    Also, is it now certified or not?

    Marcel Massini
     
  7. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,269
    FRANCE
    Marcel,

    Surely I would not be ridiculous enough to try to lecture you about the factory numbers....

    From what I recall four years ago, and if it is the same car (probably it is, but it has to be checked nevertheless) there was no number whatsoever in the engine compartment; the engine may have one, that I don't recall.
    We checked with the auction house via E-Mail, they were very elusive to say the least, but the car had no official factory identity at the time. And I was very skeptical about the said "ongoing Classiche Certification"...
    Without an official factory identity, and an official aknowledgement from the factory such as a certification, anything is possible; it might be a factory prototype (but these usually have numbers: the 1984 328 Cabriolet, which is unique, has a full VIN) or a car assembled by any garagiste from spare parts, etc...

    The factory would probably know...

    Rgds
     
  8. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,269
    FRANCE
    P.S: the Artcurial car, (if it is the same than the one discussed here), had many details suggesting that it has been assembled, or converted, later than when the first GTS appeared; the first and most obvious being, of course, the interior and the seats, which are of the "herringbone" pattern, which appeared only with the first "injected" cars at the beginning of 1981, and could not have been original for a glass car, be it a GTB or a GTS (1975 to 1977)...
    Rgds
     
  9. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2010
    6,625
    Connecticut
    Full Name:
    Ken S
    FWIW

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,269
    FRANCE
    Thanks; the car on these pics has all the features of the Artcurial car, such as the red "euro" mirrors of later models (QVs and 328), etc...so it must be the same car.
    Unless there is official factory confirmation that it is indeed a factory prototype, to me (but that is only my own opinion) most features point to a "conversion" made "sometime at the beginning of the eighties", not a period-correct prototype fr the GTS, which was unveiled in 1977. It is still a Ferrari, of course, made with Ferrari parts, but without an official seal of recognition from the factory as a factory prototype, it remains unidentified (and in some countries, very difficult if not downright impossible, to register for road-use).
    As said above, the one and only official factory produced 328 Cabriolet, which was the prototype of the whole 328 family, had a stamped chassis number (#49543) and a full VIN; the later development protoypes of the 328, such as GTB 56211, had also a chassis number and a full VIN. Never say never with Ferrari, but my guess is that if that "Vetroresina GTS" was a factory protoype, they would have numbered it.
    Of course, I would be happy to learn that I am wrong.
    Rgds


    Does it have the heightened and fattened door sills of a standard GTS, with the bigger reinforcement chassis bars, which make a two inch bump beside the sill plate proper?
     
  11. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    10,640
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    #11 greyboxer, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
    So we have a dealer trying to find out the history of a car

    Can anyone comment on the 1977 Frankfurt claim ?

    The real car was launched there so it seems unlikely that a prototype would be displayed especially as I believe the early press shots do not show the rear reflector ie they already had a real car
     
  12. steven handley

    Jul 2, 2018
    8
    Full Name:
    steven handley
    Hi Marcel,

    Yes it is the Car from the auction I purchased the car somewhat after that from the original owner, there are no identifying markings on the car what so ever, they have simply been cut out, I'm pretty sure it has not been made from parts as the conversion to GTS is very good. It is 100% Vetroresina and original Ferrari, Is there somewhere on the chassis that another vin/chassis number could be stamped ?

    Kind regards Steve.
     
  13. steven handley

    Jul 2, 2018
    8
    Full Name:
    steven handley
    No I'm not a dealer, I'm a collector of rare Ferrari's and wish to know what I have purchased, any help will be very appreciated.

    Thank you.
     
  14. steven handley

    Jul 2, 2018
    8
    Full Name:
    steven handley
    Thank you,

    I am simply trying to find out if this is the real deal 308 GTS Vetroresina or a conversion, if it is a conversion should i consider putting it back to original GTB ? I just need to find out which car in history this started out ?

    Kind regards Steve.
     
  15. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,269
    FRANCE
    Steven,
    Check you mailbox, I have sent you a PM.
    Rgds
     
  16. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    10,640
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    So this is not your website:

    Rare Marques discreetly source, purchase and supply extraordinarily rare and exotic collectable horseless carriages for an exclusive list of discerning clients worldwide.
     
    wrxmike likes this.
  17. steven handley

    Jul 2, 2018
    8
    Full Name:
    steven handley
    I have posted here to try and find out about my sodding 308 GTS ? I'm sure you have nothing else to do this evening, however please drop the silly comments or help me find out about this car, thank you.
     
  18. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
    7,763
    Worcester, England
    Full Name:
    Phill J
    That should immediately sound major alarm bells as to the cars authenticity! - Why would anyone cut out the markings if they're not trying to hide something? :confused:

    Ferrari wouldn't bother as they would have some sort of record of the car one way or another, so they've no need to hide anything (In fact, I'm not sure Ferrari could legally cut out the chassis/vin numbers and then allow the car to be used on the public roads)

    Someone trying to make out that the car is something that it's actually not though, would need to hide the cars true identity, for obvious reasons.

    You're asking on here for information about the car, but what have the Ferrari factory in Italy said about it? - They should know better than anyone if there was ever a vetroresina GTS.
     
  19. bertrand328

    bertrand328 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2015
    876
    France
    Full Name:
    Bertrand

    So Steve, what is it written on the papers ? Is there no VIN on the "title papers" ?
     
  20. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    13,592
    #20 Marcel Massini, Jul 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
    Post clear and good quality photos of the areas where you think the number(s) have been cut out.
    Right rear frame, engine compartment.

    Also: You did not reply re certification, yes or no? See also post #6.

    And from whom did you buy the car? What chassis number(s) are stated in the sales contract?

    Is the car registered for road use somewehre? England? If yes, with what chassis frame number?

    Also, if the car was in France before and now is in England, with what kind of paperwork was it imported to England?

    Marcel Massini
     
  21. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    13,592
  22. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    10,640
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
  23. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,269
    FRANCE
    Jimmie,

    The engine number is plain to see in the pictures of the original Artcurial auction. See the link I have posted above.
    When the car was put up for sale by Artcurial four years ago, I was interested by the text of the auction; what is important is that all information is on the conditional tense; according to this, the car wouldn't have any chassis number at all to start with, meaning the factory would not have given it any chassis number at all; then the first owner, who acquired this prototype after the factory discarded it would have stamped a number, then the car was seized by authorities and its numbers erased...

    I don't know about 308s, but what I do know is that I have seen factory brand new spare chassis for 328s (chassis for 308 and 328 were manufactured by Vaccari & Bossi), there even was one on E-Bay; these were already pre-stamped with the correct letters in the VIN corresponding to the market version they were built for (the chassis have differences for the different markets); all that was left to do was to punch the missing chassis numbers from the one they were replacing.
    There was a discussion in the 308 section a few years ago about a carbed 308 with an aditionnal plate riveted on the original chassis number: it was factory-made for a car that had her chassis number altered, and is the way the factory restore the chassis number when alteration has been identified.

    Rgds
     
  24. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    10,640
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    So the car has an engine no but is it in the correct format ? F106A000 (usually seen in GT4 I think) when many fiberglass cars appear to be F106A021 for example - does the actual engine number (204 ?) fit into any sequence ?
     
  25. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,269
    FRANCE
    Exactly. Seems a GT4 engine to me...but I would say perhaps a later model; I don't keep engine lists for the 308s, only for 328s; I'm sure someone might have the information about the sequence.
    All fiberglass GTBs had a dry-sump engine, except for the American and Australian variants, which had a wet-sump engine. Then again...according to the text from the Artcurial auction "this car was originally intended for the American market, so it has a wet-sump engine".
    Dry-sump and wet-sump engines have different numbering sequences I believe.

    About the engine being the "correct" format: IF the car WAS indeed a prototype, it would have been built before the 1977 Frankfurt salon; and intended for the American Market, SO...it would have either:
    - an engine from the wet-sump engine serie for american/australian GTBs version, AND with a lower number than the corresponding numbers for sept 1977;
    - a GT4 engine with a number from a serie before sept 1977.

    That being said, the car might have been built originally, as a prototype, with another engine, and the engine might also have been changed later in its life...
    But the engine it has today might be identified by someone conversant with the number sequence for wet-sump 3 liter carbed engines.

    Rgds
     

Share This Page