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Ferrari 328 - need thoughts on price

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by lewis, May 12, 2004.

  1. lewis

    lewis Karting

    Feb 11, 2004
    112
    South Florida
    I am putting in a bit ons a 328 GTS, 1997 with 11,000 miles

    Warranty book stamped through 15K miles, with the 15K service recently completed.

    I have not performed a PPI yet, but told car is great condition.

    Only issue that I can see is that center counsol is not stock, rather they put in a cell phone holder and speaker.

    I know what the Ferrari Market letter has to say, but the center counsol thing is obviously a slight hit to value.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks
     
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  3. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Oct 19, 2002
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    Serviced 87 GTS is Excellent condition with 30,000mi 30k service, $45,000 selling price (average of private party, typically $2k less, and dealer, typically 2k more). This is actual selling price.

    Same car, 11,000 miles? This car might sell for 50k, more for dealer, less for private party. Roughly speaking, if the console is really butchered up, Subtract $1,000.

    Hey, just my rough figures. I bought an 87 328 two weeks ago. By the way, everyone asks around $5k high on these cars.


    --Mike
     
  4. CraigFL

    CraigFL Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2001
    954
    Panama City, FL
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    Craig
    Don't forget that the 15K service does not include belts and this car does need belts!

    P.S. My bet is that it will take more than $1K to replace the console if you want it done by someone else and you want it to look like an 11K mile car...
     
  5. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
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    Mar 3, 2001
    7,794
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    Frank
    OK, I'll sound like the "clyde" of F-Chat 35K is overpriced for a 328 when 348's are now in the 40's that being said and moving into the real world start at 48K deduct 5K for belt job if the console is missing a piece I'd say deduct 2K min. if it can be recovered and hide screw hole then 1K should "cover" it also if the car is any color other than resale red over tan deduct another 10%
     
  6. Chiaro_Slag

    Chiaro_Slag F1 Veteran

    Oct 31, 2003
    7,731
    CA
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    Jerry
    If the car was perfect, I would say around $44-45 since it needs the 30K service - High $40's if it had this done - Especially if it was Red/Tan given the good mileage. Since the console has some issues, try to get the car for $43-44k. Good luck.
     
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  8. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    If you get that car for less than $45 private party, I think you'll be getting a deal. $45k I think would be a fair price, upwards to $50k for the "fair-ish price range."

    Regarding the ClYdE prices or whatever, show me a $40k 348 that somebody who knew what they were doing would buy, and I would show you a deal of a century. 328s can be had for 30k... Crappy ones that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.
     
  9. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
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    Mar 3, 2001
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    LA
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    Frank
    Mike, I purchased mine in November from a private party , serviced it's entire life at Ferrari of Dallas, it is a 91 model belts done 2 years and 7 K miles ago BLK / BLK in excellent condition and I paid less than 40K for it with brand new Pirelli P Zeros :) I also believe there is one currently on ebay from a FChat member with a 40 K reserve.
     
  10. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
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    Mar 3, 2001
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    Oh I haven't even seen crappy 328's for 30K they want insane prices even for the crappy ones :)
     
  11. lewis

    lewis Karting

    Feb 11, 2004
    112
    South Florida
    Update

    Dealer is Naperville motors - car is listed at $54K on cars.com, dealer called back and said could do $49K.

    To be honest, I think a year or so ago this same 328 would have been low $40's; particularly given the modifications to the counsol.

    I think I will pass at this time. What I see is the price of the 355's coming down, those were a hell of a great car and as those prices come down the 328's ought to come back into the $40ish range.

    Thanks to all - dying to step up to f-car again, feels though that maybe waiting is prudent.
     
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  13. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Right, the car will sell for $49k and he's asking $5k high. (See my first post). I lived, ate, and breathed the 328 market when I was researching. You can probably get him to move another $1k or $2k if you can convince him you're serious. Then again, sometimes people are just up front about their rock bottom price and won't negotiate or otherwise budge.

    Lewis, it's great to see you in the market for a 328. However, and I could be very wrong here, but am I the only one who does NOT feel that 328's are priced "high" (like a "bubble" that's going to burst) currently? Lewis, your comments seem to suggest that you think they are.

    Before you make any decisions, please go ahead and give this thread a thorough read:

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16568&highlight=muscle+cars

    Several people "track" the Ferrari Market Letter asking prices, and there is a graph of those prices in that thread.

    The graph says:
    1. 328 <b>GTB</b> asking prices have been flat for the past year, and have fallen approximately linearly $6k from $43k to $37k during 2001 to 2003. This is just a rough interpretation.

    Meanwhile, I'm sure the average mileage of 328s has gone up as each year passes, while similarly the average condition would naturally go down (slightly, of course).

    11k is an "outlyer" as far as 328 mileage goes (yes, it's quite low) and will command a corresponding "mileage" premium. If $49k feels too high for you (and I agree, it's too high for me), you might look at a more "average" 328 (GTS, red, 30,000 miles, serviced or not, private party).

    But, there is nothing that indicates to me that the prices are currently "high" or artificially inflated. According to the data, these prices have stabilized, or perhaps they are slightly depreciating. Meanwhile, the purchasing power of a given dollar amount is decreasing, so that's something to consider, too.

    If your funds are in line, and you find the right car, Carpe Diem, man, move on it or don't. But don't not move on it because you think you'll get a better deal if you wait. Yes, wait for the right car. But, there is an opportunity cost of waiting and timing the market... Especially when the Market's flat.

    Welcome to FerrariChat, by the way. There's more people here who know what they're talking about with this stuff then you'll find in one place anywhere else! :)


    Take care,

    --Mike

    NOTE: My $0.02. More opinions available on request.
     
  14. Tuco

    Tuco Karting

    Mar 10, 2004
    148
    Texas
    Lewis
    For whatever its worth I recently purchased a 1986 328GTS Red/Tan, 31000mi. all books and tools. Not Pebble beach but VERY clean .Belt service is coming up real soon, for low 40s. I researched the market before I made my decision. But remember you can also drive yourself crazy investigating market trends and fluctuations etc. The most important thing you can do once you,ve decided is get a PPI. There are many better pure investment oppurtunitys out there. Part of the RETURN of your investment in an F-car is driving / owning a car with such a rich heritage in motorsport. It,s an experience that few people are fortunate enough to have. Do what your heart tells you, get the car and drive it. You will become Spellbound
    My 2 cents and hardly worth that
    Good luck, let us know.
     
  15. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Isn't that the truth! Check out this 328:
    http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/5/6/64637056.htm


    Seller picked up car at an auction. He's estimating somewhere around 100,000 miles, but doesn't know the exact mileage for some reason. They're asking $34k, but would probably do $30k if offered to them.

    I have additional photos of the car if anyone's interested... But personally, I decided pretty early on that this wasn't the 328 for me. :)
     
  16. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Oct 19, 2002
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    If anyone cares, I called about this car:

    http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/8/4/70690584.htm


    Euro car, with papers. I liked the guy. Definitely a nice car, one that I was considering. The Euro thing, I didn't really know how that should affect price, how it would affect ownership, etc. I was also concerned about emissions.


    --Mike
     
  17. jcl

    jcl Rookie

    Jan 20, 2004
    11
    Lewis: There are many people on this forum who offer opinions without the benefit of facts or knowledge, so take what people say here and compare it to what you see with your own eyes out in the market place.

    Some thigs to consider:

    No 30k service on a car that has 7 years on it? Is there other maintenace that has also been defered? If the only evidence of maintenance is the stamps on the service book, does that mean the fluids have not been changed? Do you have 7 year old brake fluid rusting/corroding the seals in the braking systems - I use this as an example and there are many other items like 7 year old hoses, flat spotted tires, etc, etc.

    Does the interior/exterior match the mileage? You would be surprised how many do not. One thing to keep in mind is that Ferrari leather does not hold up well, but there shoud be no "rubs" in an 11k car. The driver probably didn't sit in it enough times to do any damage if it is only 11k miles.

    In terms of pricing, people are asking crazy prices for 328s because they want to. Someone mentioned "show me $40k 348 prices". Well there is a posting I read a few moments ago in this website of someone who is selling their 348 ts black/tan (29.5k miles) on e-bay with a reserve of $40k (it went up to $39k and did not sell). My guess is that he wants more than that, but you now know what his minimum might be. You might be surprised at what you can buy for the money you are looking to spend for the 328. By the way, I do not know the seller. I am also not making any statements of what car is better. Those are all personal choices. My interest is that you make informed choices.

    Regards,
    Joe Ramirez
     
  18. jcl

    jcl Rookie

    Jan 20, 2004
    11
    Lewis:

    The car is either a 1987 328 GTS or a 1997 348 TS: No such animal as a 1997 328 GTS.

    Also, the owner spent money on the console, but not the maintenance?

    I meant to include this in my earlier post, but senior moments happen to me more often than I care. As a friend on mine once said: "One of the things I miss most, is my memory".

    Regards,
    Joe Ramirez
     
  19. jimpo1

    jimpo1 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 30, 2001
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    Also no such animal as a 1997 348TS....
     
  20. Cincy Ken

    Cincy Ken Karting

    Jan 24, 2004
    219
    Cincinnati
    I did a fair amount of research and analysis before buying my red/tan 1989 328 GTS at the beginning of 2003. Among the things I did was compile a data base of asking prices for about a dozen and a half to two dozen 1989 328s, taking into account various factors such as mileage, color, GTS / GTB, etc. Although the market has probably changed a bit, here are some of my findings, at least for my small sample:

    (1) As pointed out by FML, there is a substantial difference between 1989 and earlier 328s, so I focused on the 1989 cars to get better correlation of other factors.

    (2) GTS / GTB wasn't a big differentiator in price.

    (3) Color is a factor, with red, black (or grigio), and yellow being the normative colors. Other colors, particularly white and green, were substantially lower in price ($7K less, in my analysis). This said, I didn't see a lot of vehicles in this color, so it may have been some other factor that held back the asking price of these particular vehicles.

    (4) Depreciation per mile was in the range of $0.37 - $0.40 per mile, depending on which cars were in my data base at a given time.

    I derived this information from a linear regression of the surveyed vehicles. With this data, I then calculated the "statistical" asking price for a car of that color, mileage, etc., then compared that to the actual asking price to determine whether the actual asking price was above or below the statistical "market." I also compared this with the FML and NADA prices, and, for particular vehicles, performed additional adjustments for corrections such as the major service, cosmetics, etc. This wasn't all that difficult, and I put it together in a few evenings with Excel. The main benefit of this exercise was that it gave me a rational basis for negotiating with the seller and explaining my offer and how his car was priced relative to the market. This kept emotions out of the discussion (and mostly out of my thought process), and got me a reasonable deal. If I were a really shrewd negotiator, I probably could have done a little better. But I certainly don't believe I overpaid either. And we both went away thinking we got a fair deal.

    There are lots of other approaches, but I offer this as one substantiated by facts rather than opinion. Good luck in your search!
     
  21. jcl

    jcl Rookie

    Jan 20, 2004
    11
    Also no such animal as a 1997 348TS....

    Jimpo, another senior moment. What can I say: I knew what I wanted to write down, but that is not what my fingers typed.

    Regards,
    Joe Ramirez
     
  22. Kevallino

    Kevallino Formula 3

    Feb 10, 2004
    2,248
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    Dunno what color you are after, but I have just done a PPI on an '88 328GTS black/crema here http://www.rpmsportscars.com/door21.htm that has come back as a really nice car. I have decided to go for a late 348ts or spider after driving Fiercsm's '91 348ts here in LA. The black car is in Houston - Speedy308 looked at it for me and then I had a full PPI including compression/leakdown test done but changed my mind in the middle of things.

    Didn't get to hardcore price discussions but this is a good car. PM me if you're interested in the PPI results.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     

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