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Ferrari 330 P4 #0856

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by tomgt, May 20, 2017.

  1. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    So missing are the June ACO verifications techniques documents by the french.

    My theory; the swap of chassisnumbers + engines is:

    ACO demands before a certain date to publish the drivers and racenumbers.

    Ferraris Parkes and Scarfiotti (works drivers) tested a lot of times with 0856.
    They did the Le Mans test with 0856 (April) with no. 21.

    If someone from CSAI or Ferrari made a mistake with the entry documents by listing Parkes and Scarfiotti as no. 21 for 0858 that might be the reason to do a swap; drivers raced with a car they know very well: 0856. (Daytona, Monza, LM Test and Spa)

    Swap the tag and engine with 0858 so the works drivers were able to race with “their” 0856.

    As Ferrari has a lot of records for 0858 they have for 0856 as well.
    In their documents lays the answer.

    What other logical reason can be the reason Ferari Classiche stating 0858 is the “24” at Le Mans?
     
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  2. The Strad

    The Strad Formula 3
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    Interesting theory.
    However, there remain many unanswered questions, assuming your theory would be right.

    1. Why did Swaters (Ecurie Francorchamps) keep saying and publishing that his (1967 Le Mans) 3rd place winning car (Mairesse/Beurlys) was #0856, and doing so for the rest of his life?
    2. Why would Swaters have agreed so easily with the swap of numbers, and in case he agreed, why did he never, never talk about it?
    3. What could be the reason, or better, the advantage, and for who, to keep this whole thing out of any P4 related book, website, magazine?
    4. Ferrari SpA wasn't happy at all that David Piper tranformed #0858, in Can Am specs, back to some kind of 330 P4 replica. Only the remains of the chassis was #0858. Did Ferrari SpA "give" the number #0858 to #0856, in order to make Piper's P4 creature worthless?
    5. Why does all this come to the surface (in case of a swap at 1967 24h Le Mans) , more than 50 years after the facts?
     
  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #78 miurasv, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
    The published revision wasn't until around 2009 at the time of the RM Auctions 0858 auction and Jacques Swaters died in 2010. The restoration/reconfiguration of 0858 as a P4 was years after the revision of the race history.

    There was a lot more of P4 0858 in Can Am 0858 than you state.
     
  4. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    1) 0856 was never his and why would he care about a car on loan (no financial interest in that car)
    2) Would he have known about the swap? Team got a car to race and after the race cars going back to Maranello.
    3) no one knew and no one cared for these old race cars. Today there is financial interest not in 1967-1970 (that interest came much later)
    Writers of books like Dominique Pascal would not care; just write the number + a vin if they had the info. Info came from the ACO listings.
    So no one to blame, not the aco, not a writer
    4) truth will come out if someone has the racing records / reparto corse documents. So what has Ferrari to win? Nothing by publishing false information.
    5) Did you do research on this car 30-40 years ago?
    Not me and most of us did not. Who asked the ACO for info, who had access to F info?
    Who really cared?
    What is the problem that this info comes 40-41 years after the race?
     
  5. The Strad

    The Strad Formula 3
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    That clarifies a lot, thanks.
    True, numbers in these days weren't imported at all. Apparently, everybody just took over the same information, without really checking at the source.
    Of course, there's no problem that all this is revealed after only 40 years, it's just a little surprising nobody looked for the correct info any earlier.
    About time that barchetta.cc, anamera, racingsportscars.com, sportscardigest.com and so many others correct their websites.
     
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  6. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    It would be good if Ferrari comes up with info in public :)
    I do not know if 0856 has been Classiched with a red book. Anyone?
     
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  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #82 miurasv, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
    I believe it has. It would be good to know what the Red Book says re 0856' race history. I am not aware Ferrari have actually published a revision for 0856 and 0860 which is necessary because of 0858's revision.
     
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  8. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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  10. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    how I read it with my very very low italian language knowledge they also changed something at the fuel injection?
    for spa it says it lucas injection plus 1 mechanical plus 4 bendix and 3 fuel filters and for le mans only double injection pump. so may be the engines are different because of other engine numbers? because they changed the engine and the gearbox with an other ratio

    great to read those documents ;)

    thank you marcel for publishing :)
     
  11. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    The weight increased to 872 kg at Le Mans, 10 kg more than the 862 kg at Spa.

    Marcel Massini
     
  12. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    According to Roush, Weed and Ensz:
    Monza race was won by 0858 and 0856 was not present, but.....there were no.3 and no.4 car and iirc 0860 was not finished for Monza.
    So it must have been 0856 for no.4 car Monza.

    See my first post:

    Press car: Jan 1967, Berlinetta
    Testing Aeroautodromo Modena, Jan 1967
    24 Hours Daytona, race no. 24, Feb 1967
    1000 km Monza, race no. 4, April 1967
    Le Mans Test, race no.21, April 1967
    1000 km Spa, race no. 9, May 1967
    Le Mans, race no. 21, June 1967
    converted to barchetta (Ferrari calls it: versione aperta)
    BOAC 500 Brands Hatch, race no. 7, July 1967
     
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  13. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Ferrari Market Letter volume 34 Number 8: Ferrari 330 P4
     

    Attached Files:

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  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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  15. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    I have to revise this as my Monza F records say:
    0858 for bandini - amon
    0860 for parkes - scarfiotti

    So this should be it for 0856:

    Press car: Jan 1967, Berlinetta
    Testing Aeroautodromo Modena, Jan 1967
    24 Hours Daytona, race no. 24, Feb 1967
    Le Mans Test, race no.21, April 1967
    1000 km Spa, race no. 9, May 1967
    Le Mans, race no. 21, June 1967
    converted to barchetta (Ferrari calls it: versione aperta)
    BOAC 500 Brands Hatch, race no. 7, July 1967

    ofcourse unless F states otherwise :)
     
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  16. The Strad

    The Strad Formula 3
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    #92 The Strad, Feb 3, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
    Fantastic, thanks for posting this.
    The possible switch of the respective chassis number plates between 0856 and 0858, remains somehow a source of doubt.
    The only persons who were closely involved, who could know about this (and that are still alive) are Forghieri and Belgian driver Jean Blaton (Beurlys).
    Blaton lives closer for me....
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    I don't think the drivers of the day were particularly interested in chassis numbers. Chris Amon thought he was driving the car he drove to win Daytona, 1967 in 1975, but the car was 0856 of course. But please don't let this put you off asking Blaton as if he has an interest in the cars he may well know. I'm sure it would be great to talk to him any way, so good luck!!!
     
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  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Steve, if we assume Jim G and Classiche were correct in the claim that Ferrari Classiche wouldn't Red book #0858 if it were returned to P4 form then #0860 which went through that process back in the 1970s or 80s would be the same. I do get the feeling that if the Bardinons rocked up to Classiche with the backing of RM Sothebys, Classiche would accept their loot and classiche it as anything they want but until the day we see the media release crowing about their fantastic work etc. who is to say.

    Regardless,
    - #0860 was re-converted back to 330P4 spec. sometime prior to 1987
    - It only ever had two owners post Scuderia Ferrari, William Harrah & Pierre Bardinon
    - Racingsportscars history of #0860 is pretty simple -
    Le Mans 24 Hours 24 Heures du Mans 11.6.1967
    19 Image Unavailable, Please Login Ferrari 330 P4 #0860 - Ferrari V12/60° 3v DOHC 3983 cc N/A P5.0
    SpA Ferrari SEFAC (I) Closed bodywork
    Mid-engined
    Driven by: Günther Klass (D)/Peter Sutcliffe (GB)
    listed, never drove: Leo Cella (I) Result: did not finish (Engine)
    Grid: 11th (3:33.500)
    Sponsors: FERRARI
    Registration: Prova MO31 Colours: red
    Tyres: unknown
    Photo updated: 23/11/2015 Photo by courtesy of:

    Brands Hatch 6 Hours BOAC International 500 30.7.1967
    6 Image Unavailable, Please Login Ferrari 330 P4 #0860 - Ferrari V12/60° 3v DOHC 3967 cc N/A P+2.0
    Ferrari S.p.A. SEFAC (I) Open bodywork
    Mid-engined
    Driven by: Chris Amon (NZ)/Jackie Stewart (GB) Result: 2nd
    Grid: 6th (1:38.200)
    Sponsors: unknown
    Registration: Prova MO-31 Colours: red
    Tyres: Firestone

    - That still leaves #0846, 0858 and 0860 to work through although #0846 should be fairly easy to work through
    - Someone really needs to write a book about the P3/4s and properly document their history, I would bet that with enough documents and high res photos from the era one could track which cars were used where, even if carnets were swapped because I doubt the bodies were swapped between chassis.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #95 miurasv, Feb 3, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
    Timothy: In 2013 Marco Arrighi, then of Ferrari Classiche, informed me that they would not Red or White Book Certify 0858 as a P4 as it never ran with a 350 (4.2) engine, that 0858 has in it, as a P4 and moreover the Classiche Committee would not authorise the conversion back to P4 to preserve the then only remaining 350 Can Am.

    They may view 0860 differently, but the engine will most definitely have to get a 4.0 litre block/pistons and a few other mods, and then I can't see why 0860 would not be eligible for Red Book Classiche Certification.

    Regarding 0858, nearly 6 years on, and after the reconfiguration back to P4 from Can Am, they may reconsider, if it too had the engine reconfigured back to 330 4.0 litre size with a tipo 237 cylinder block and pistons.
     
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  20. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That must be the hardest thing to sell ever.
     
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  21. readplays

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    These pictures are amazing. Thanks so much for posting.
     
  22. lymartin9999

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    Thanks, it was a special time. This is from when David sold the car (and why).
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Thanks for posting. I read David donated the proceeds of the sale, or at least some of it, to charity.
     

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