Ferrari 360 major service / camshaft question | FerrariChat
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Ferrari 360 major service / camshaft question

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by mferrari43, Feb 20, 2023.

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  1. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #1 mferrari43, Feb 20, 2023
    I’m in the middle of doing a major service on an ‘04 360 modena and the engine wont turn over after i had the camshafts out to replace the ring seals.

    Not sure what i’ve done wrong exactly, but after i installed the belts and tried to turn it over a few times it wouldn’t budge with pretty firm force so i didn’t go any further. I’m guessing it has something to do with the camshaft reinstallation? What is the proper way to reinstall the camshaft? The workshop manual doesn’t say much.

    Any help is appreciated. This is my first time getting this deep into the car.


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  2. PaulK

    PaulK F1 Rookie
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    #2 PaulK, Feb 20, 2023
    Hi Matthew, did you verify its correctly timed and are super sure? I don't want to alarm you and I hope its nothing but that is where my mind went to.
     
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  3. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #3 mferrari43, Feb 20, 2023
    I think i am going to adjust the driver side slightly, i thought i was pretty sure. I’ll post pics of the timing marks.

    What is the procedure for tightening the caps on the camshaft? I was starting from the front cap and proceeding backwards to the rear of the car because the camshafts weren’t sitting down flat and the marks would end up out of time if i tried it another way?

    Before being tightened down, the camshafts themselves have some play forwards and backwards in their resting place, is there a notch somewhere i should be looking to know its exactly in the right place?


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  4. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #4 mferrari43, Feb 20, 2023
  5. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    Matthew Ferrari
    #5 mferrari43, Feb 20, 2023
  6. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    #6 yelcab, Feb 20, 2023
    You do not need to remove the cam shafts to replace the seals, you remove the sprockets to replace the seals. Having said that, those witness marks look correct for assembly. As for not being able to turn the cams with your bare hands, that would be correct. Although you should be able to turn the cams (a little) with a 21mm open ended wrench using the flats at the back of the cams where the witness marks are.

    I frankly cannot tell you why they are locked up and unable to be turned with decent force on the crankshaft 36mm nut. Did you remove all spark plugs? Did you put the cams back in the same places they came out from?
     
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  7. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    #7 yelcab, Feb 20, 2023
    By the way, I think it's time to call in the professional. You may be in over your head. You will need to do the cam timing using a degree wheel to get everything back to spec.
     
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  8. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #8 mferrari43, Feb 20, 2023
    Yes all spark plugs are out. The workshop manual states to remove the camshafts to replace the seal ring which is why i did it that way. I’ll be checking everything over again next weekend. Thanks for the reply


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  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 fatbillybob, Feb 20, 2023
    Was the crank at TDC during install of cams?
     
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  10. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #10 mferrari43, Feb 20, 2023
    Yes, i had the timing marks lined up when i took the cams out. I’m seeing that they look slightly off? The factory mark is kind of wobbly. I’m going to try to get the car in TDC and align the timing marks so the scratch hits dead center from the rear inspection cover.
     
  11. Fcar tech

    Fcar tech Karting

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    #11 Fcar tech, Feb 21, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2023
    Shop manual instructs you to do a lot of things incorrectly..
    You got a shot of the crank position at #1 TDC? Not sure you were on #1
    You need a degree wheel, or a shop that can take over from here.
     
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  12. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #12 mferrari43, Feb 21, 2023
    Will i be able to turn the engine over to find TDC now? (With the belts off) Should i just remove all the cams now and find TDC or is it not safe to turn the crankshaft even with all the cams removed?

    I’ll send a pic of the crankshaft timing mark. I am beginning to think i tried to turn it over and it wasn’t perfectly in time on the rear markings of the driver side cams.


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  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #13 Rifledriver, Feb 21, 2023
    There is no factory crankshaft timing mark. What mark are you using?

    I understand you wanting to service your own car but this is no job for a beginner. I really support others in their advice to stop now. Its very possible valves are already bent. It needs someone experienced to get this cleared up.
     
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  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    #14 yelcab, Feb 21, 2023
    Brian is right. Sadly, there are no factory marks for the crankshaft at TDC of any kind. You find it with a degree wheel and a dial indicator.
     
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  15. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #15 mferrari43, Feb 21, 2023
    You have to start somewhere, thanks for adding nothing to the conversation though!
     
  16. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #16 mferrari43, Feb 21, 2023
    I understand how it is found, thank you. my question is, since the belts are already off, what is the method to rotate the crank without damaging anything?
     
  17. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #17 mferrari43, Feb 21, 2023
  18. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #18 mferrari43, Feb 21, 2023
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    Really dont think i bent one of these turning the engine by hand. I stopped when i realized the force was much more than when i turned it over prior.


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  19. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 fatbillybob, Feb 21, 2023

    Take out cam shafts
    All valves will close
    Move crank to tdc in driven direction
     
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  20. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #20 mferrari43, Feb 21, 2023
    THANK YOU! :)

    Going to order the hill engineering TDC tool
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #21 Rifledriver, Feb 21, 2023
    Those were not made by the factory nor do we know what they indicate.
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #22 Rifledriver, Feb 21, 2023
    Can we have the serial number?
     
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  23. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #23 Rifledriver, Feb 21, 2023
    Except that is not a 360 valve with 6mm stems that are undercut to about 5mm near the head.
     
  24. mferrari43

    mferrari43 Karting

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    #24 mferrari43, Feb 21, 2023
  25. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    #25 yelcab, Feb 21, 2023
    OK, Matthew. So it seems you are comfortable wrenching, even though we can tell you are branb new to the 360 and maybe even Ferrari because of the questions you are asking. So here goes.

    Remove the cams
    Find number 1 TDC compression stroke, anyway you like.
    Re-assemble the cams back on, to the exact positions they were removed from.
    Line up the witness marks, as best you can.
    Install the belts, and tension them.
    Get a degree wheel back on the crank shaft, perform a cam timing session to the 360 specs. That is in the WSM.
    You may choose to do a compression test to see if all valves are good, or you may choose to trust your judgement and ignore that step.
    Button everything up, put the fluids back, and fire her up.

    Some helpful advice:

    Now, you are new to the site with less than 100 posts. You have not really been around long enough to learn who to trust, whose opinions are worthwhile, and their personalities on line. I thought I saw a post where you told someone to go **** off. That is not endearing to any of us and certainly does not win you points. Block Rifeldrive all you want, he happens to have more knowledge on this engine than 99% of us on here and frankly, you have a lot to learn on this engine judging from how you got to this point. I hope it turns out well and you get it running. Best of luck to you.

    Signing off.
     
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