Ferrari 360 Swiss Army Knife by 360trev! | Page 8 | FerrariChat

Ferrari 360 Swiss Army Knife by 360trev!

Discussion in '360/430' started by 360trev, Sep 6, 2018.

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  1. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    You have a pm
     
  2. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Stage 1 Immobilizer bypass instructions
    As promised here's the full disclosure of information for the starter relay bypass mod. This looks more complicated than it is, all we are doing is joining 2 wires together to override a relay. That's it..

    On the 360 there are in fact 2 immobilizers, the first big box has a starting relay which is under control of the larger immobilizer box behind the drivers seat (LHD). Once you blip the key fob and it recognizes the fob, this relay is activated by the micro controller (software) and it switches pin 12 to join pin 13 (enabling the circuit).

    If you still have the factory immobilizer running inside your Ignition ecu's, this wiring mod/bypass won't do all that much. It will change behavior slightly in that it will make it so you can now crank the starter with the key (no matter if the key fob is used or not) but the engine will still not start (since ignition ecu still has immobilizer intact and the software is inhibiting the fuel pump). It will prevent you being unable to start the car because of a 15+ year old mechanical (non swappable) relay failing and leaving you stranded!

    So doing this bypass may help a number of people who have intermittent starting problems due to immobilizer mechanical relay failure (Since this relay is soldered on the board its not swappable unless you de-solder it). It will mean if your immobilizer relay is failing or has failed you'll be able to reliably start the vehicle again since this effectively bypasses the relay altogether. Actually think of this as making the car more reliable and less prone to failure as these cars get older.

    Follow the pictures. If you have any questions let me know. Once this is done Swiss Army Knife can be used to bypass the second stage immobilizer thereby allowing you to start the car with just the key (no fobs needed, they only operate the central locking after this).

    *This only applies to the 360's, on the F430's Bosch didn't even bother with a 2 stage immobilizer. They just relied on software on F430 and so using Swiss Army Knife on the F430 requires nothing like this to be done.


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  3. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    Awesome! So glad we have you supporting this plat form. Might just put in a mini toggle on this circuit.
     
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  4. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    There aren't really any negatives to doing this mod. The 'software' immobilizer (if you want it) stays intact inside the Ignition ecu's so this just eliminates another mechanical relay that's prone to failure and cannot be easily replaced.

    In fact once you do a Swiss Army Knife immobilizer delete on the car both these 'prone to failure' immobilizer boxes ecu's can be removed entirely, although then you have no keyfob and no remote central locking. The key in the lock still provides central locking in that both doors will lock/unlock with key in but you won't have any remote locking if you remove the larger immobilizer box since its also acting as the 433Mhz/315Mhz fob receiver.

    I can list the pinout if anyone wants it. E.g. so that you can upgrade to entirely different keyfobs (e.g. from an F430 for example). This would allow you to upgrade entirely to a key/fob combination from an F430, or how about a 458 key? Again if you get the receiver module and trace the activation wire you could in fact swap over to any module you want... Or throw the whole lot away and go passive keyless entry.

    Trv
     
  5. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3
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    Following the install of my CS TCU a couple years ago, I started to notice that when starting the vehicle there was a delay when turning the key. Same kind of delay that you would experience when the F1 warning light is illuminated but it's not. My mechanic said it may be the starter relay given an indication that it's on the way out. It doesn't happen all the time, but it is noticeable. Could this be the cause of it?

     
  6. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    It's possible, easy to test ..
     
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  7. Skippr1999

    Skippr1999 F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2009
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    Trev,
    Can these immobilizer bypass items be implemented AFTER the system fails ? Or must this be done prior to failure?
     
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  8. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Any time you want.. even after. Quite simply this overrides the relay, whether it's broken or not makes no difference.
     
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  9. Skippr1999

    Skippr1999 F1 Rookie
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    Thanks for the info.
     
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  10. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

    what's the story behind clicking throttle body?

    I have a clicking every time i disconnect the battery and reconnect

     
  11. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    It doesn't go away.. the click your hearing is relearning...
     
  12. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    A better description now I've woken up properly. Ok, the first time you turn on the isolator switch and put key to position 2, after re-fitting of new battery the computers all need to re-learn. Or if you have previously isolated the battery for whatever reason.

    So you need for example to slide windows all the way down and all the way up for them to learn the stop points. Same thing for the TB's ( throttle bodies ), it needs to learn the resting point (fully closed) and end point (fully opened) so you hear them go through a learn cycle. Once and then store the learning parameters in volatile memory (not saved if battery goes flat!)...

    You can also assist learning of throttle by leaving key in position 2 with engine off, and depressing throttle pedal to maximum. Then letting taking foot off pedal. Do this a couple of times and you'll be able to hear the throttle body opening and closing depending on your pedal angle. This procedure will rapidly accelerate the learning of the TPS ( Throttle position sensors ).

    Other re-learning will happen when driving such as how well the coils and plugs in individual cylinders are operating, the ECU will sniff the exhaust via the O2 sensors and adapt ( or trim fueling ) and learn some more and eventually after all the learning its done. Time to complete depends on type of driving, etc. Normally after about half an hour of different driving it's done. You can be more scientific but it's ok to just drive slower during warm up and then do different speed roads, in my experience and it's still ok.

    The click of the throttle bodies occurs usually after someone has jump started the car via battery terminals... If they are lucky they didn't spike the ECUs and kill them instantly. However even if they don't, they can weaken the ignition ECUs to the point that in the near future the PWM ( pulse width modulation ) circuit responsible for controlling the voltage to the throttle body is damaged and fails. It's not a replaceable part inside the ECU's so you end up needing to replace the whole ECU. Later generations of ECU send just the digital signal of the requested voltage out of the ECU and the throttle body itself generates the control voltage to power the throttle plate. This is a much better design as if it fails you just replace the TB and not the whole ECU. Worth pointing out these power circuits are also a known weak spot even if you didn't jump start the car and eventually they will fail.

    If it becomes a pandemic I could modify the SW in future to use later style throttle bodies and use a separate pin to send signal out of the ECU but it's a lot of work and at this point it's cheaper to just replace ECU. Could then even generate PWM signal with a external board to power the TBs... Lots of possiblities. We shall see ..
     
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  13. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    ... hope I am not boring people too much with these technical descriptions! If so I will dial back on the detail, as always let me know.
     
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  14. hessank

    hessank Formula 3
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    Absolutely not!
    For learners like me the more you write the better I understand. Please continue.
    And thank you again for all you are doing for this community.
     
  15. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 World Champ
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    A few questions:

    1. I have no problem using a soldering/desoldering iron. Do you know if those relays are still available to replace if they do in fact fail?
    2. Since the cars came stock with immobilizers, do you see any reason that insurance companies might frown on or not cover the car if it is stolen?
    3. The big one-since we all seem to agree that completely removing the problematic and expensive immobilizer system is the ultimate goal, would we be able to then add an AFTERMARKET remote lock system/anti-theft/alarm device to the car?
     
  16. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    1. Yes, they can be sourced
    2. Yes they may do, you can normally get an aftermarket (certified) immobilizer fitted and usually thats sufficient. My car has a removable steering wheel which kind of makes it much harder ;)
    3. Yes, Im working on a keyless entry solution and a much stronger security solution. Watch this space.
     
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  17. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 World Champ
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    Awesome, I hate the current remote locking system and would absolutely replace it. $150k car and they can only give a one button fob from an old Ford that may or may not lock/unlock and/or start the car. It's a like a prize every time you drive it.
     
  18. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Formula Junior
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    This is interesting information...!!
     
  19. wbt

    wbt Karting

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    Trev, how is progress going on porting 360 code to work on other Alfa/Fiat generic ME7.3 ECU's ? (i.e. a cheap and commonly available source of new replacement ECU's)
     
  20. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Not good so far. None I've re-flashed have worked in the car so still definitely a work in progress... Problem being they are a different hardware revision to one used in Ferrari's. So right now we are still stuck to recycling genuine Ferrari ones
     
  21. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    How close is this to being a finished product? I'm interested in the setup, but I'd need a 360 Swiss Army Tool for Dummies description to get me started. :)
     
  22. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3
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    I was hesitant to do this, not because I doubt 360trev, but simply I didn't want to cut factory wiring. However, just in case I need to, I left enough of a lead to reconnect if necessary.

    I can't be certain...or actually I can but it's my birthday and I don't feel like jacking with the battery, but I believe there might be another benefit to this mod. Last Saturday, I took the car out for an gathering and due to the thing called life, my car has sat in the garage for the past week without it's lifeblood provided by the battery tender. I simply forgot to plug it back in. When I parked my car, I noted the voltage as 12.8v Today, when I got in it the voltage was 12.6v

    Normally, if I leave the tender off for a day, voltage is down to 12.4v or less. Not sure if I am just reading into things or pulling at straws but it seems this simple mod has helped with the infamous issue with needing a tender immediately after shutdown on these cars.
     
  23. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
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    Keep us posted, after another week without the tender. This is an interesting data point...
     
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  24. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
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    @360trev , just wanted to drop a note to say I'm rooting for you to release your tool !!
    I've been reading all of your threads related to this topic! I'm a CS/EE Engineer myself and completely appreciate the amount of hours you're spending on this project. This is massive!!

    I'm hoping you ideally come with a solution to address each ECU directly from the OBDII port so we don't even have to get in the engine bay to remove them :)
    Is this the same K-Line shared by all?
    Anyhow, if your first version still requires the ECU to be pulled out of the car, don't delay for this... Easy enough to do...

    Also, love reading your technical explanations and discoveries... Keep them coming...

    Richard.
     
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  25. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Hello Richard,

    Thank you for taking time to contribute your thoughts. They are very much appreciated.

    You don't really expect the sheer number of man hours required at the start. Having to develop so much software like new algorithms for accurate detecting maps and functions no matter what is encountered wasn't something I expected to have to do. Nor did I think i needed to learn the finer points about how all of the ecu calibration maps work together to eventually derive a fuel injector duty cycle. The happy coincidence of all of this is I understand how the car and all its sensors and actuators work now vastly better than before! I'll have to write a walk through document one day for interested people... Most would glaze over and find it utterly boring but I am sure there are a few which wouldn't mind following...

    As the project progressed I have now obtained around 40 different variants of 360 ROM images that Bosch produced for the 360's, everything from Challenge Race cars right through, varying in configuration and maps between model years and intended geography. Trying to make sense of all of that lot hasn't been easy, especially as I wanted a solution that worked like factory and not just on a few cars. Now the same functions work across every single Ferrari rom I've tried them on for the 360's, F430's and even 612's. I'd like to in the future extend its support to 458's, 488's and also other models like 550's, 348's, 355's, etc. Basically as driven by demand...

    On the OBD thing I hear you loud and clear. The obd seedkey patch I wrote is fully operational and actually I've found the keys too so I can still do it without hacking the seedkey routines, the only thing that hinders is time and the fact I'm doing 1000 things at the same time...
     

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