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Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Prototype Daytona 11929

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by bhallq, Sep 25, 2015.

  1. bhallq

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    #1 bhallq, Sep 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I am pleased to announce my purchase of 11929, being the 4th 365 GTB/4 prototype built, which was first debuted, along with 11795, at the Paris Auto Salon, which took place between October 3rd and 13th, 1968. This has been confirmed by renowned, Paris-based Ferrari historian, Christian Huet. The car was originally painted and presented in Paris in dark blue metallic. It has been often mistaken for 12037, which was apparently not built until early 1969, and originally painted light blue metallic (Azzuro Metallizzato).

    I am pleased to attach a picture of 11929 at the Paris Auto Salon as photographed for the November 1968 edition of "l'Automobile Sport Mécanique".

    I have been advised that 11929 may have also been presented at the London Motor Show, which took place just after the Paris Auto Salon, but this has yet to be confirmed.

    In the spirit of continuing my research endeavors in connection with 11929, I gratefully invite any further information and/or any supporting pictures or documentation of 11929 at Paris, London, or at anytime thereafter.
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  2. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Congratulations on the arrival for you of 11929. The early Ferrari 365 GTB/4 models have a number of special and individual characteristics. The 'straight ear' knock off wheel hubs can clearly be seen in your picture to.
    Can you confirm if your car was fitted with a radio? Also was the car ever for sale before in Florida USA?
     
  3. bhallq

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    The car was never equipped with a radio, and I am not sure whether it was ever for sale in Florida.
     
  4. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Interesting details regarding the radio as 11795 was equipped with a radio.

    Some auction info I have seen for 11929 is this listed below. However it seems in some way to be confused instead with the history of the earlier 365 GTB/4 s/n 11795 instead. The error may have been with the auction house research. I don't have the auction house name either just the auction dates with these brief details.
    I show 11929 for sale 10/1/88 as a red/blk conversion, “gift from Ferrari to Italian race car driver”. Then for sale again 3/18/89 red/tan, “ex-Merzario, converted in 1970 or 71 by Scaglietti”; Also again 3/17/90; all three times in Florida USA.
     
  5. fredenzo123

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    #5 fredenzo123, Sep 26, 2015
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    Here are pics dated 2004 showing the rosso/nero conversion with the corresponding serial number plate.
    Where is the truth?

    Fred.
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  6. Daytonafan

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  7. omd78

    omd78 F1 World Champ
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    Congratulations!

    Gr. Martin
     
  8. bhallq

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    #8 bhallq, Sep 30, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sincerest thanks for the kind accolades. I am both thrilled and honoured to be the new owner of this car, and my work is cut out for me in terms of nailing down the accurate history with any and all possible supporting documents and photographs.

    So what is the unequivocal “truth” regarding this car?

    It is indeed and absolutely without a doubt, according to Christian Huet and Hillary Raab, and pursuant to unequivocal supporting documentation, the 4th Daytona Prototype car built.

    It was definitely one of the two Daytonas that were first introduced to the world as prototypes during the Paris Auto Salon exhibition held from October 3, 1968 to October 13, 1968. It was displayed on Franco Britannic stand No. 51, Hall C, in the Ferrari division. The other Daytona (s/n 11795, finished in red) was displayed in the Pinanfarina division, and was the official press car and accordingly, given the tremendous impact of these newly introduced stunning Daytonas, was one of the most photographed Ferraris at the salon. Indeed, author Dominique Pascal chose Daytona 11795, as photographed at Paris Salon 1968, as the cover car of his famous book, “Ferrari Au Salon De Paris 1948-1988”.

    On page 104 of the same book, in the Salon 1968 chapter, Pascal presented a black and white photograph of Daytona 11929. In the November 1968 editon of the popular French car magazine, l’Automobile Sport Mécanique, a color picture of 11929 in its dynamic dark blue metallic finish was featured in an article highlighting various prominent cars from Paris Salon 1968.

    Over 1 million people attended Paris Salon 1968, so surely there have be some more photographs of 11929 floating around somewhere!

    The Earls Court Motor Show in London took place from October 13, 1968 to October 26, 1968, so it would make sense that 11929 was featured at that exhibition as well, but this has yet to be determined and any information or insight in this regard is greatly appreciated.

    Contrary to the previous belief and representation, 11929 was not originally white with black interior, as it was featured at Paris in its blue color, and there is no evidence indicating that it was previously white. As well, I have not been able to establish that 11929 was displayed at the Turin Motor Show that took place from October 30, 1968 to November 10, 1968, but this is also being researched further.

    The representation that 11929 was donated by the factory to Italian racer Ignazio Giunti can also not be established, and it's destiny as at 1969 and thereafter is currently being researched.

    Finally, and somewhat regrettably, 11929 was also not converted into a Spyder by Scaglietti in 1970 or 1971, but was apparently converted in the late 70’s in Italy by an entity that is also yet to be determined.

    This car is not equipped with a radio, and the configuration and condition of the console is such that there is no indication or evidence that it would have ever been equipped with a radio.

    Once again, any information and insight into the history of 11929 would be greatly appreciated.
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  9. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    bhallq - In the light of your research that
    "Finally, and somewhat regrettably, 11929 was also not converted into a Spyder by Scaglietti in 1970 or 1971, but was apparently converted in the late 70’s in Italy by an entity that is also yet to be determined."
    are you now thinking about putting the car back to the spec it had at the Paris Show?

    As an aside I see that the plaque in front of the show car quotes the power output at 400CV. Were the prototype engines more powerful or did Ferarri just get more realistic with their claims later on?
     
  10. Zarathustra

    Zarathustra Formula Junior

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    Here is a colorful FChat discussion of SN 11929 from 2002:

    FerrariChat.com: 67 daytona spyder "prototype"??

    This is the meat of it from L. Wayne Ausbrooks:

    Post Number: 566
    This just in (I will keep the source anonymous):

    If "Dr." Marvin Friedman is the same person as Mr. Marvin
    Friedman, one-time proprietor of the Hallandale, Florida dealership
    Autoputer, then:

    Marvin Friedman was charged with defrauding three banks of almost US$1.3
    million. He was subsequentlly convicted and spent a number of years in
    jail.

    He is now out, and as of a year or two ago was in Pompano Beach, FL,
    back in the car business,. At that time his e-mail address was
    marvin@autosmartusa.com.


    As for the car, here is what Gerald Roush has on file:

    S/N 11929
    365 GTB/4 Berlinetta 4th prototype / Spyder Conv.

    European production 1968

    Identified as 365 GTB/4. #4 Prototype. (H. Raab's FSN Part I, 2nd Ed.).

    Original color bianco polo (white). Shown at the 1968 Turin Auto Show,
    then sold to Ignazio Giunti.

    Mar 1987 car being offered in Europe as ""Prototype Daytona Spyder"".
    Subsequently received numerous inquiries. No one had documentation.
    (Joe Lewis, New York, NY, Mar 1987)

    1987 being offered as ex-Merzario, spyder version. Per telex from
    Ferrari car was originally a berlinetta & was not ex-Merzario. (Tony
    Adriaensens, Antwerp, Belgium, Cavallino No. 39, Jun/Jul 1987)

    Factory telexes in file state ""the car serial number 11929 is an
    original Daytona Coupe prototype."" and another states (my translation
    from Italian) ""Daytona ch. no. 11929: Unfortunately no official
    documents exist but it is our belief that this was a prototype which
    Ferrari probably consigned to Giunti or to Merzario.""

    SPYDER CONVERSION offered 1988 by Herve Gachon, Miami, FL & France. Red
    with black leather. Borrani wire wheels. Low mileage, excellent
    condition. A gift from Ferrari to an Italian race car driver. Car
    located in Florida. Display ad only. (FML 1320)

    SPYDER CONVERSION offered 1989 by Autoputer, Hallandale, FL. Red with
    tan interior. One of four known factory-documented prototypes,
    allegedly ex-Merzario, converted by Scaglietti in Italy . (FML 1406).
    Black & tan interior. (FML 1420). Offered again 1990. (FML 1505).

    SPYDER CONVERSION seen Jun 2002 in Fort Lauderdale, FL. Owner claims it
    is a factory prototype given to former factory team driver.
    -----------------------------------------------

    Whether or not the car was here in SoCal in or around 1979 in coupe form, is unknown to Mr. Roush, as I stated before, however, that original source was very reliable. Anyway, no matter. I think the more interesting thing is Marvelous Marvin's claim to GTO ownership. As for credibility, I think his prior "record" speaks for itself.
     
  11. bhallq

    bhallq Rookie
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    I am now in the process of undertaking a full restoration of my Daytona Prototype, s/n 11929, with a view to bringing it back to as close to how it appeared at the 1968 Paris Salon, where 2 Daytonas (11795 and 11929) were debuted.
    At Paris, 11929 was presented in dark blue metallic, with a black interior (with headrests), on the Franco Britannic stand (#51).
    Additionally, 11929 was likely presented at the Turin Motor Show, which took place roughly a month following the Paris Salon, however, with a color change from blue to white.
    In order to achieve the result that I am seeking, I am hoping to secure any pictures of either 11795, or 11929 (my car) at Paris and/or Turin, as these Prototypes had several unusual, but similar features.
     
  12. fredenzo123

    fredenzo123 Formula Junior

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    We are talking about 11929 since the beginning of September. His story seems agitated and purpose that we all pursue is to try to shed light and to know the exact situation. It is this that fascinates the pure ferraristi.
    What is his true story in 1968? The color change between blue and white in the space of one month is strange. The Spider transformation also seems mysterious.

    What bothers me in all this is not to have seen any pictures of 11929 in its current state. This seems to me important and fundamental. So thank you for allowing us to see 11929 in 2015!

    Fred.
     
  13. bhallq

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    #13 bhallq, Dec 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017


    I refer to my previous post of September 30th, 2015, as shown above.

    In terms of the London Motor Show, 11929 was definitely not featured at that event, as we have found pictures of 11795 in London, in the same state as featured in Paris.
    It made absolute and practical sense for the Paris press car to be transported north to London for the UK event, which took place a matter of 3 days later.
    Please refer to the first photo attached, showing 11795 in London.

    11929 has been previously represented as being the feature Daytona at the Turin Auto Show, presented in white, consistent with the theme and color of the other Ferraris featured. This is likely why the car was believed and represented to have been originally painted white. Attached is a photo of the white Daytona at Turin, which had to be 11929.

    It has only been recently discovered and corroborated that 11929 was one of the two Paris Salon Daytonas, leaving us with the conclusion that it was featured both in Paris and Turin.

    Indeed, with 11795 being sent to London, it would have made absolute sense for 11929 to have been shipped east to Italy and repainted in white, in time to be featured at Turin. To claim that a period of 3 weeks would not have been enough time to transport and repaint the car is unreasonable, as cars destined for auto shows were frequently repainted within short time spans.

    By process of elimination, 12037, having been the test car that remained in the factory, would not have been featured at the 1968 auto shows. 12037 was originally painted Azzuro Metallizzato (light blue metallic), and in late 1969, it was crashed during tests and thereafter destroyed.

    According to Marcel Massini, in a post made on September 13th, 2015, on the thread, "1968 London Motor Show, Earls Court", he stated:

    "12037 was originally Azzurro Metallizzato 106-A-32 and remained a factory test car. It was totally destroyed on the 20th October 1969 near Maranello in the testing accident of Antonio Cocozza and Gian Andrea Bianchi, two factory engineers and test drivers, which were both killed. The remains of 12037 were scrapped."


    To this point in time, the only photo of the rear end of 11929 that I have been able to secure is the attached photo of the white car at Turin. As it turns out, having concluded that 11795 was not at the Turin auto show, 11929 had the same unique trunk lid configuration as 11795.

    Attached is a picture of 11929 in its current state (August 2015) as a spider conversion (red/tan).

    The fact that 11929 was converted to a spider later on it its history, is simply a fact and reality in its history, and should not be seen as anything "mysterious", and the previous reference and belief that it was a conversion completed by Scaglietti is not accurate.

    Accordingly, and once again, it is my intention to reconvert 11929 to its original prototype coupe configuration, and restore the car to how it was first featured in Paris, and I am reaching out to the FerrariChat community with a view to finding any further pictures or information about 11929 at Paris and Turin.
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  14. BBBBBBB

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    William,
    Congrats, what a wonderful car this will be once completed again as shown in Paris 1968.
    Ben
     
  15. cf355

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    very nice. congrats :)
     
  16. fredenzo123

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    #16 fredenzo123, Dec 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thank you.
    What is your opinion about this picture? Looks to 11929 in Paris (color, presence of flowers) but the floor and background are different.
    I thought it was 11929 in London, with you previous post, it seems not true now.

    Fred.
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  17. bhallq

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    Thank you for proffering the picture. This scene has become quite familiar to me as it depicts 11795 at Paris. As the press car, it was probably one of the most photographed cars at the show and, as previously indicated, came to be the cover car for "Ferrari au Salon de Paris 1948-1988."
    I recognize the "Karmann" sign behind the car and to the right, and the stainless steel "Pininfarina" sign directly behind the car.
    Ironic that so few pictures have surfaced of 11929 from the same show!
    Over 1 million people attended the Paris Salon, so there have to be at least some pictures floating around of 11929!
     
  18. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Several cut Daytona Spiders have already been re-converted back to Berlinetta configuration. In Enland and in Italy.

    Marcel Massini
     
  19. GIOTTO

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    #19 GIOTTO, Dec 14, 2015
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    Good to hear that. Here's another photo with the Torino car.
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  20. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

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    William, your mission to restore the car to its original configuration is a noble one. Best of luck in your endeavor. It would be wonderful if you would share details of the process as I'm sure a number of people would be interested in following your progress.
     
  21. fredenzo123

    fredenzo123 Formula Junior

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    I think you are right.
    The Karman emblem and the blu chiaro Dino at the left of the Daytona confirms it is 11795 in the BW picture I've posted.

    Fred.
     
  22. bhallq

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    #22 bhallq, Dec 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thank you, GIOTTO, for posting a photo of the car at Torino. I have never seen this picture before and it will be very helpful in terms of identifying details for the restoration.

    It is my plan to properly document the restoration of 11929, and it will be a pleasure to share the progress and pictures with the FerrariChat community.

    At the risk and humility of repeating myself, I am reposting the 2 pictures below, that I have of 11929, featured in blue, in Paris, and am hopeful that more pictures can resurface.
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  23. GIOTTO

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    #23 GIOTTO, Dec 18, 2015
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  24. GIOTTO

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    Any news about the restoration of that Daytona ?
     
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  25. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

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    The restoration of #11929 back to the Paris show GTB specification never happened: https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1233312

    (NOTE: I have no affiliation with the car for sale in any way, shape or form. The linked advertisement is merely to give an update as to the latest chapter in #11929's history)
     
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