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Ferrari 365 P Paris Motor Show 1966

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by redsun, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dave Powers
  2. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    1,961
    I have seen the white one and the silver one (that with rear spoiler) in person but the red one only in pictures, so I can't decide if that's an actual third car until I compare the pictures feature by feature with the silver car. But all I would like to know is, on the Agnelli special clutch tail spoiler car which might have been red and offered by Sidney Simpson Automobile in Houston in 1978, what was the asking price. Someone else on this forum says $45,000 and that sounds about right for the time, considering it was neither man nor beast (production car or race car; somewhere in between) or should I say "neither fish nor fowl?":

    PARTIAL OWNER CHAIN
    66 - Torino Show Car
    66 - Gianni Agnelli, Torino, I
    75 - G. E. Keeney, 17931 Sky Park Circle, Suite B, Irvine, CA, USA 92714, 714-979-7247
    75/dec - offered for sale
    76 - John W. Mecom, jr., Houston, TX, USA
    (Only interested in prices offered up to here because after that it boomed in price as a collectable...)
     
  3. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Aug 1, 2002
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    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    These are the same car. All pics below show 8815.

    8815 was originally silver with black stripe:

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    It was silver when photographed at Laguna Seca in Monterey, CA by Marcel Massini in 1974 (CA plate "3 POSTI"):

    (Copyright Marcel Massini)
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    And silver when offered for sale by G.E. & Scott Keeney in 1975 (CA plate "977 DNF"):

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    At some point prior to going to Texas, 8815 was repainted black with red stripe. See pics below, both on CA plate "3 POSTI" and later on TX plate "MVV 634":

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    While with Mecom in Texas, 8815 was repainted solid red, and remained in this color throughout the 1980s. These pics are from the Barrett Jackson Scottsdale Auction in 1988 (TX plate "MVV 634"):

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    In 1991, then owner Edgar Bensoussan had 8815 repainted in a shade of light silver-blue with black stripe. This pic is from Pebble Beach in 1993:

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  4. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
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    SF Bay Area
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    T. Monma
    per Ed Niles...
    "At that time, it appeared that the front suspension and fuel tanks were pure 250LM, which would tend to confirm that the chassis was LM. However, I noted that the rear suspension appeared to be P-car."

    As mentioned much earlier-and this is DECADES ago-my memory and our conversation as I recall, confirms what we both seem to have said as far as it being pretty much an LM chassis...

    Fitting a 245 engine in there would be a real dicey deal...
    The tanks as so unique to an LM, there really isn't any other application where this crosses over-IMO.
    The front suspension on these and the parts here are also IDENTICAL to those used on TEAM 250P cars, as well as the 275P and 330P cars...
    The chassis is used in all of these are NEARLY identical in all salient features.
    While there are differences, they are slight and not "engineering wise" significant-so to speak.

    I help maintain one of the TEAM P cars mentioned above, and have experience with LMs, thus can speak intelligently and with authority on the subject based on experience and not observation, pictures, books, or here say.... That said, since Ed'smemory and his article state LM tanks and front suspension, with P rear stuff, pretty much seals the deal IMO as far as the 8815 car being of the LM lineage branch...
    FWIW-rear uprights in an LM and 250/275P cars are identical....
    The frame differences between an LM with a 210 and a 250P are so minor that the differences can largely be attributed to FIA requirements to keep the LM from being declared a de-facto "Prototype works" car or, "P coupe"...

    I know Louie, and have so for 40+ years...
    AFIK, the "other"was built on a frame from a "testing crashed" 365P chassis, which was re-bodied and re-engined with a tipo 245 of "unknown heat range"
    This s significant as the bore centers are significantly wider than the small bore center Colombo engines-the largest displacement being in the 163 class motors(which were the motors used in the EARLY 330Ps and NOT 209 bore enter blocks).

    I bring this up as from my experience in a 250/275P, there is NO way you could shoe horn a 245 in there without BUTCHERING the frame into an unrecognizable abomination-IMHO...besides, the bulkhead wall wouldn't fit! :-{

    The cars, while visually quite close, underneath will be found to be quite different I would suspect if juxtaposed for an up close inspection...that would be an interesting afternoon!
    And they reside so relatively close to each other...

    I am nearly certain Louie's car has a 245 block which means it almost certainly would be a later Prototype frame of some ilk intended for the wide borecenter block-it still uses the same type of transaxle as an FYI...therefore original intent would've been for the later, "more better" bigger motor

    Both are cool cars, and really the last of the "*****in'" coach built specials-imo
     
  5. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    1,961
    I am searching for anecdotes about him for a story. I can't classify him as a dilettante as he actually raced some Ferraris at Sebring.He ran 11 events between '56 and '58 according to the site Racing Sports Cars

    They list him as a Belgian, I thought he was Dutch.

    The same site has this additional info:
    Most frequent co-drivers: George Arents (2), Alfonso Gomez-Mena (1), Jacques Swaters (1), Richie Ginther (1), Julio Batista Falla (1), Abelardo Carreras (1), David Cunningham (1)
    Most frequent makes: Ferrari (11)
    Most frequent types: 290 MM (4), 250 GT (3), 500 TRC (3), 500 TR (1)
    Most frequent chassis: 0628M [860] (3), 0569GT [250GT] (3), 0664MDTR [500TRC] (2), 0698MDTR [500TRC] (1), 0616MM [290MM] (1)
    Most frequent tracks: Windsor Airfield (3), Sebring (2), Oakes Field (2), Le Mans (1), Kristianstad (1), Cumberland (1), Caracas (1)

    Now car activities aside, I am more searching for a couple of funny stories, of how he romanced a female Rockefeller heir (by all accounts a real bow-wow) into buying him a home in I think Palm Beach, using her villa in the Cote d'Azur and other world class gigolo moves. I am not worried about him suing me for defamation--he was murdered in NYC, apparently after he had sold his last Ferrari...the one he got trading in the 3-Posti

    The Rockefeller heir is described in New York Social Diaries as such: "The question is, who was this woman? Usually the answer is limited to her maiden name; Margaret Rockefeller Strong (1897-1985). The Marquesa's life and the circumstances surrounding her 1965 largesse are a lot juicier than the simple fact that she was just one more Rockefeller. Margaret Strong was Standard Oil co-founder John D. Rockefeller's favorite granddaughter, a solemn child, raised in Fiesole, Italy by her expat intellectual parents, heiress Bessie Rockefeller and her husband, former University of Chicago psychologist Charles Augustus Strong."
     
  6. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    155
    Hi Ed
    Roberto, the new owner told me the engine is a tipo 209, 330 block.
    I have a 330 engine bored out to 365 specs and I assume his is also.
    I don't know anything about the 245 engines.
    Did the first 365 Californias have them or were they bored out 209 blocks?
    Enjoy
     
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  7. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
    6,392
    I think without being 100% sure, that the silver one is going to be restored by Kidstone.
     
  8. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    10,711
    It is Kidston not Kidstone.
    Kidston does not restore cars. They are brokers based in Geneva, Switzerland.
    The car will be overhauled by a specialist in northern Italy, near Modena.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    365 P Speciale engine tipo is 217P according to the chassis plate so it's interesting that the new owner says the block is 330 tipo 209. Does it have 209 stamped on it anywhere?

    4.4 litre 365 Californias have tipo 217B, 81 x 71 mm bore and stroke. I don't know if accurate but the 217B engine of the 365 California was said to be upgraded to tipo 245 for the 365 GT 2+2, 365 GTC and 365 GTS on Ferrari's web site. Ferrari's site also says the 365 tipo 245 engine was an enlarged version of the 330 tipo 209 engine. So does the development = 209 to 217B to 245 rather than 209 to 245? It would be interesting to know the differences.

    The engine used in the racing 365P2/3 in 1966 is said to be tipo 214 that Ferrari claimed 380 BHP for which had 6 double choke Webers and a dry sump. But the tipo 217P engine in the 365 P Speciale is also claimed to have 380 BHP but only has 3 double choke Webers. It's claimed to be a racing engine in 365 Speciale 8971 but it has the 217 tipo number of the road car 365 California but with a P instead of B suffix. Does 8971 have a dry sump and is it actually a racing or a road engine? Same question for 8815.

    8971 was built in 1966 and the tipo 245 engine did not come out until later on in 1967, I think, so if so won't have a tipo 245 block.
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #85 miurasv, Oct 14, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018

    Also interesting is that the first 365 California, 8347, said to be built on a tipo 571 330 GT 2+2 chassis, has a chassis plate stating a tipo 209 engine. Other 365 Cal Spyder plates I've seen state a tipo 217B engine. Pic I snipped from RM Sotheby's site.


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  11. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Sep 7, 2004
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    There was another SoCal owner before Keeney, I think. Can't remember his name, but I did a small story about having a ride in the car for the FOC magazine "Ferrari". I wonder if anyone has a collection of these old mags?
     
  12. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
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    May 15, 2003
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  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    J. David Kopf of Tujunga/CA owned 08815 from 1970 until 19 April 1974 when sold to Bud Keeney.

    Kopf had bought it thru factory sales director Amerigo Manicardi in Maranello.
    In 1971 Kopf showed 08815 during the Hollywood Bowl Concours d' Elégance.

    Marcel Massini
     
  14. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    155
    I asked him if it had a tipo 209 engine.
    Quite possibly he does not know what that means.
    I asked because I have a tipo 209 engine stamped 8971 which was stored in the '70s.
    It is bored to 365 specs..

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  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Very interesting. Could this be the original or spare engine for 365P 8971? Does it have 209 stamped on it also? Presumably it has 2, not 4 engine mounts???? Does it have a dry sump? I look forward to your reply.
     
  16. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    155
    It is a 2 mount engine and has 209 cast into the top of the block at the back, not stamped.
    It came out of 40 year storage last fall. Removed from a burned car at a junkyard in Wisconsin.
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #92 miurasv, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    Thank you. It is actually visible it's a 2 mount engine as you'd see the rear mounts below the engine number in your picture if it was a 4 mount engine.

    Wet or dry sump and what (burned) car did it come from may I ask?
     
  18. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mr Heinrich

    As I told you already by email I have checked this with the factory and the answer is very clear. There has never been a type 209 engine with internal number 1722. The 8971 is a restamp.
    Your engine appears to be from a 330 GT 2+2.

    Marcel Massini

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  19. Lowell

    Lowell Formula Junior
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    Apr 17, 2005
    710
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    Lowell Brown
    Later 330GT's had two engine mount 209's. These engines were shared with the 330GTC. The two mount 330GT engines had a later 365 (I think) transmission that only had a single transmission mount at the very rear (I know). Apparently the only difference between the two engines was that the first run of two-mount 330GT had more expensive carburetors than those of the whole run of the 330GTCs. Much later 330GT's had the same carburetors.
     
  20. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    155
    Thank you Marcel.
    What engine does have the internal number 1722 if not a 209?
    If this is a restamp, then what number should it have?
    Maybe we could re-unite it with the car it goes to.
     
  21. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    155
    It is not a dry sump.
    Where would "209" be stamped?
    This engine has 209 cast in the top, but not stamped.
    It does have 214 stamped in the top.
     
  22. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
    6,392
    Thank you for the correction.
     
  23. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    155
    In your email to me you say, "I know 8971 personally and have inspected it twice".
    I am curious about the internal number of the engine which is now in the car.
    It has the internal number 2356, which should date from 4 to 7 months after the car completion date.
    Considering that car had an experimental engine why would that engine date so far after.
     
  24. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    155
    I'd say the first engine was a tipo 209
     

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