458 Ferrari 458 Spacers & extended bolts - Why Titanium?

Let's get one thing right straight off the bat. You do NOT need Titanium bolts. Some like the look, and some think they can sense the weight difference. The latter again, not really. It's like the interior CF. If it makes you feel good, do it.

When you install spacer, you obviously need bolts that are longer than the stock ones by the thickness of the spacer. I think it is pretty self explanatory why that is.

If I were to run spacers, I'd only trust bolts from Hill Engineering. Now if you like the idea of TI bolts, I do believe Hill's bolts are like a third of the price of Ferrari bolts. At any rate, you can use either material, just contact them and tell them what thibkness spacers you have.

While you order the bolts, you need to order two wheel hangers. Never try and work on a wheel with a spacer without using two of these. You will more than likely end up with a chipped brake rotor.

And lastly, no, 15/20 is not the most common size, 10/15 is. On a lowered car for those to fit well with no rubbing, you need a few things.
You need at least -1.5 degree camber in the front and -1.75 degrees in the rear. When setting the front camber, you need to move the washers from the top to the bottom, and then finish off with amber shims. This mea s that the top of the tyre gets pulled in a bit.
On top of this, you need the fenders rolled in the front.

I'd strongly adbise that you sell those spacers, or at least get a set of Hill 11 mm spacers for the front. Then you can try both very easily before diving into more substantial mods like fender rolling. 11/15 usually fit with no mods, 15/20? Not so much.

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Why not get some new wheels with the correct offset do that there is no need for spacers?


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There's quite the difference between spending 1500 Euro on spacers and bolts, vs. 15000 Euro on wheels.

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I ran 15/20 with no rubbing, no rolling of the fenders and no excessive negative camber besides the natural negative camber from lowering the car on Novitec springs. I ran the car hard on Mullholland Hwy on the infamous "Snake" and not even then did it rub.

Titanium bolts, while not necessary, can help offset the extra weight added from the spacers and the load and stress being place on the wheel bearings. If you search enough you will see some who have experienced wheel bearing failure from running spacers. The physics makes sense.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/146122433/

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/146110040/

 

The main reason to install Titanium lug bolts is because they look better and don't rust/chip. Saving 1 or 2 lb close to the rotational axle doesn't make a lot of difference for the average street driven Ferrari.

Ray

 

Re titanium bolts...when I bought my 2010 458, 7,700 mi, the worst thing I found was that the wheel bolts all had the chrome cracked at the corners...rusting and cutting fingers.
As the original tires were on it, I assume that the wheels were removed at the dealer during servicing...probably using an impact wrench. I have seen impacts used wrongly at shops (from indies, to Mercedes, to Ferrari), with wheel and rotors being damaged,
All the time. With alloy wheels on any car, this is a crime, even to remove the lugs. They should be hand torqued.
The titanium bolts, about $400/set of 20, are works of art, with 17mm internal hex wrenching. Using a 1/2" 17mm Allen socket bit, you don't have the issue of a socket contacting the wheel bolt recess. BTW, having bought a second set of wheels, Oz 9x19 & 11x19, with Hoosiers for hill climb, track, and autocross....I have changed wheels a few times.

 

The difference between no spacers and the 11/15 set is substantial. The difference between 11/15 and 15/20 is just icing on the cake.

There can be small variations that cause so.e to rub more than others. Whether you run Pirellis or Michelins matter too. On top of that, when ut co.es to camber, sorry to say, but our cars come from the factory with camber numbers that are all over the place. This might account for why some need rolling and others don't. As an example, a member here we don't see much these days 458Trofeo did the 15/20's and lowered on Novis. His car was mostly about the looks and he never had rubbing due to severe track driving. But he is just an example of a guy who did both the camber adjustment as well as rolling, to avoid rubbing.

You might get away with it, but everybody I know who did 15/20 on a 458, switched to 11/15 or 10/15.

Also remember that 15 mm spacers in the front mess with the steering feomitry. For this reason, 11's are a better choice too. Make sure that you have the spacers installed when you get the alignment done after lowering. Even if you don't lower, getting the car aligned after spacers are installed, is a very good idea. Spacers can enhance negative effects of an off alignment.



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What size tyres are on those Superforgiatas? Pics?

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Anybody have experience with the Capristo spacers and bolts? 14/17mm.
I ordered a set and after reading everything about spacers I am not sure whether this size is a good idea. I wasn’t planning on lowering my car but I am concerned about the load on the various components of the suspension. Thanks.

 

Because Hoosier sizes are zilch in 20", I went to the 19", still limited.
Front. 235-35/19 ......width in the Hoosier is almost 1" wider than others, 9.3"
Rear...315-30/19
Caution!....tire diameter stagger is reduced to almost nothing. The ECU controlling ESC/stability control
Will be affected. In my car, going into 7th (top) gear, produced stabbing braking and throttle cutoff !
While advised against it (on this forum), I experimented, and found that, as long as I did not let it go into 7th (turn off auto),
OR if I switched to full race/ 5th magnitino setting, it worked fine. The 5th setting still has ABS, but no traction or stability control.
About 2k miles, 8 auto crosses (incl. TTOD) like this.....I think I am contributing something new to the forum, but it is just my
experience, a dealer would never advise it.
FWIW, I do have 35 years of driving and engineering race cars, particularly Anson formula cars.

I also lowered the front 1/2", set 2 1/2 degree negative F camber, 1/4 " total toe out for track use. This cost nothing, tho I made the camber shims.

 

I've seen several reputable vendors recommend all sorts of things, telling everyone that there's no issue, no rubbing, better performance and all the rest of it. You can find lots of that just by looking on these boards. Chariot sized wheels that offer no loss of comfort and enhanced grip. Wide rear wheels or widened rear track that don't createe understeer. Wider front track that does not make for darty steering, or wider track that does not affect bearing life or wear out links.

You can call my advice analytical, but I NEVER post anything I have not had my hands on. I run the tracks, I play with alignment, I try setups and love doing so. I have learned that it is worth taking some ofvthe stuff coming from a lot of vendors with a ton of salt. Here's an example. If you run a 488 on the track and do a hard left-right switch, or right-left for that matter, how is it that such a manoeuvre will cause rubbing on stock wheels with stock shoes, but a wheel vendor will sell you wider wheels and tyres, claiming no rubbing on track? Yep, does not add up for me either. There are so many examples of such things it beggars belief.

If you want someone that had to roll them, just look into 458Trofeo's threads on his 458 mods.

Ricambi did the right thing with that recommendation. Even IF 15/20's would not rub on your car, it will drive better on 11/15' than it would on 15/20's. Let me be as frank as I can and call it like I see it. 15/20 spacers are for those who don't care how the car drives and only care about looking cool.



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I forget if I am 15/15 or 20/20. I think 15's. I lowered mine a bunch. I only rub at full lock, and that is only rubbing on the inner fender shield and only when I have gravel stuck in the tread. I went with toe in but in spec for camber. No fender rolling.

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Yet to see anybody get away with 20mm in the front.

How does it do on hard compression when driven hard on track or backroads?

Why toe in? Unusual for an rwd sports car. What is your front toe settings?

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It is most likely 15/15 then. All the spacers are the same size.

Hard compression on brakes has not been an issue yet. I do have a hole under the center of the frunk though.

Toe in because I don't like the twitchy steering and vague feel at high speeds that toe out provides. I'd have to look at my notes at the shop to see where I set the toe.

 

In that case, 11/15 is max.

When you add more track width in the rear than you do in the front, you add understeer. In order to keep or enhance the dynamics of your car with these spacers, you need to dial in oversteer.
Also make sure that the shop balance your car when you lower it. 42.5/57.5 distribution is a good number.

Aside from the weight, try these settings.

Front:
Toe. -8 minutes (-1.15 mm)
Camber -1 degree 50 minutes (-1.83 degrees)

Rear:
Toe. +9 minutes (+1.3mm)
Camber -1 degree 30 minutes (-1.5 degrees)

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I just looked back at the for sale thread where I bought the springs and spacers. They are 17mm spacers.

 

I’ve had people insist that certain combinations don’t rub fenders, only to find they do. They just don’t drive hard enough on the street or track. I have learned to trust only combinations recommended by those who have had actual hands-on experience with them and track that setup.


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I'd be very interested to see them.

Interesting that you call it vague. I find in many cases that toe in gets numb and slow. What I found is that sometimes our cars come with poor alignment from factóry. My 488 had a combined toe out of about 5 minutes. It was loose at speed and scary during hard breaking.
I now run 10 mins out per side up front, and also 8 minutes out in the back. It's on rails in a straight line. This might sound stupid, but yes, I can take my hands off the wheel at 300. It carves like a figure skater on new blades, with zero twitch or darting. With these settings it is of course neutral with a hint of oversteer, but that's what makes it fast. This unfortunately also means that it is not a car a driver without training can drive. It is a really good setup for track and fast road driving, but the safety net is gone. Like a race car setup, it does not progress into understeer. It grips until you run out of talent, and then it's all oversteer. You can catch it of course, but only if you know how to catch a car that is neutral. Just a wonderful feeling. Few things can ruin a fun drive like understeer.

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