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Discussion in 'F1' started by Sig. Roma, May 15, 2020.
Binotto will have first to explain how Ferrari can fit in a specs series.
Indycar mandates either a Honda or Chevrolet engine and a Dalarra chassis/body.
Its an empty threat to shake and pressure FIA and Liberty IMO
It could be.
Enzo Ferrari went as far as having an Indycar built when he was threatening to leave F1 for CART!
Ferrari are looking at keeping personnel due to the up-and-coming $145million cost cap in F1.
So Indy is a viable option.
See post #2
Penske has been looking to get another engine manufacturer into the series so let's get that rumor going?
Another engine manufacturer (that would now make 3) would have to undertake to supply 1/3 of the field and with a price ceiling, according to the rules.
Will that suit Ferrari?
It would make more sense for Ferrari to just do what McLaren is doing and use their own staff to run the team.
I don't see Ferrari ending up in Indy though.
I so desperately want this too be true and that Ferrari are the long awaited third engine manufacturer. I'll put more wight in this once I see it on Autosport, Racer, F1 or ESPN. I find most of the other sites treat rumors as way too close to the truth. The fact the site linked is claiming it as a recent quote by Binotto is encouraging though.
I don't know why people are so skeptical of Ferrari entering a series like Indy car. It would be a similar set up to both the 333SP (built by Dallara) or their GTE programs. Non of those cars were run as factory efforts. People always forget that not all Ferrari race cars are factory run.
If, and as I say I really hope it's true, I bet it would be a multi year deal where the first year they partner with a team like McLaren have done and run just two Ferrari engined cars. After that first year I think they'd have to open up to customer teams.
Yeah, now they do. What does that have to do with when (and if) Ferrari were to enter the series?
Do you expect Indycar to change its rules to accommodate Ferrari, and all the other teams to agree?
I don't think Indycar wants another war.
Simply because Ferrari didn't bring these cars (333SP and GTE) in existing specs series.
IMSA, WEC, SRO are open series.
I'm not sure what rule needs changing? IndyCar have been searching for another engine manufacturer for several years now. There's no rule that says you must use a Chevy or Honda, just you have to use an engine to X, Y, Z, parameters like in F1. Both Chevy and Honda are on record saying they welcome a third manufacturer. Also what's the issue with a Dallara chassis? Ferrari frequently provide engines to fit into other peoples chassis. Dallara made the 333SP. The A1 GP cars were Ferrari powered. Many customer F1 teams through history. No rules need changing for Ferrari to enter as an engine suppler, quite the contrary, they and other OEMs are being openly courted by the series and teams.
I think you're wrong. Honda and Chevrolet are probably tired of the series being a two engine formula And I think they would love the opportunity to compete against and possibly beat the fabled team from Italy.
To join Honda and Chevrolet as engine supplier in Indycar, Ferrari would need to agree to make its engine available to 1/3 of the field.
That's the undertaking, and there is a price ceiling attached to that obligation too.
The engine design is also very restricted, so is the development to keep cost down.
Of course Honda and Chevrolet would welcome another engine supplier, if only to relieve them from the obligation to supply 1/2 of the cars each like now!
No problem using a Dalarra chassis for Ferrari.
To enter Indycar, Scuderia Ferrari could even buy an existing team and stick its logo on the cars.
McLaren already uses that formula, but it simply dilutes the brand.
Of course, I may be wrong.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if either Honda or Chevrolet were looking for an exit from Indycar.
Hence why they would welcome Ferrari onboard to stop their own participation.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand why selling engines to teams is so unpalatable. They sold 333SP's, they sell GTE cars, they sell F1 engines. In the past they sold F1 cars to private teams. It also help amortize your development costs when you sell engines. Really, please explain what is so onerous about selling engines? Also F1 is just as prescribed as Indy car with the engine regs. they both spec # of cylinders, turbo's, V angle, allowed materials etc. Both series run on (different) spec McLaren electronics. The Indy car regs may be more restrictive in some materials and the (current) lack of hybrids so they can be designed and built at a lower cost point, but that doesn't mean there is any more or less freedom in the rules for ingenuity and development. One of the biggest complaints about F1 here is the over reliance on Hybrid technology and the sound. Indy cars have no hybrid and sound really nice in person.
While F1 has been struggling with declining viewership over the last few years, Indy car was finally recovering from the near death knell inflicted upon it by Tony George and the infamous split right up until Corona virus shut everything down. The racing is outstanding and viewership has slowly been improving and the public access to teams, drivers etc. is better than F1 was in the 80's. Please go and try some races on YouTube, it really is an excellent series and I'd honestly love Ferrari to join in. I bet Enzo will be beaming down with delight when a prancing horse finally cross the yard of bricks in first place.
I don't know your age, but I see you're from England. I'm going to make an assumption that you look down on Indy car and oval racing in general. If I'm wrong in that I sincerely apologies. I'm an Ex Pat Brit who moved to the States in 94 at age 25, I did look down on Indy car and oval racing when I got here, especially after Mansel came and mopped up in Indy car in 93 while Michael struggled. Now with hindsight and details coming out I know that was a very unfair and short sighted view. I, and many others, will never forgive Tony George for the split, and after the split while CART continued for a few years to race monster cars with outstanding drivers, the IRL initially really was a bit of a joke with crappy cars and many, not all, second rate drivers. I walked away from Indy car, and F1 in the yawn Schumacher years, before getting back into both series around 05 ish. Indy Car really is a great series, with great competition and outstanding drivers. Oval racing is very different, it's taken me years to start to understand the nuance. I never had that issue with F1 as I watched it from pre memory, but learning a new type of racing is harder as an adult. I just urge you to give it a fair shot. Again, if I'm wrong in my assumptions I apologies, I'm just basing it on your comments.
While it may be a spec chassis, there's a lot of things that can be worked on. Dampers are free, there's a lot of aero work even with the spec parts. Teams still spend hours in wind tunnels and working on the cars with spec parts. One huge advantage of the spec nature showed itself when they introduces aero kits for a few years. Immediately Honda and Chevy poured millions into aero development and guess what happened? Air got dirty, following and passing got harder, and small taps produces shredded winglets and tire cutting carbon debris.
If there wasn't a spec chassis the series would have folded. In the post tobacco and post split world where NASCAR built itself up to be such a powerhouse, before starting to shoot itself in the foot, there is only so much money available. Open chassis development would have priced itself out of the market. Instead we've got a second great open wheel series to follow. Outstanding racing, a huge variety of tracks and amazing action. I urge you to go to the Indy car youtube channel and look at some of their 30 min race recaps from last year.
Again, pleas tell me why the idea of Ferrari in Indy car is such an anathema to you?
Personally, I think the more series Ferrari (without compromising performance) the better. Just my $0.02
A Formula 1 engine is already built to last 5 race weekends (1.5hr+1.5hr+1hr+1hr+2hr)×5 = 35 hr
This is already in spitting distance of WEC requirements.
So, I think it would make more sense for Ferrari to go back to le Mans.
Secondarily, Indy Car is USA and seldom elsewhere.
I think Ferrari should stick to racing centered in Europe (with no disrespect to Indy Car or any country implied or intended.)
Actually Penske is working to bring more then just 3 engine manufacturers. I will say Indy car racing has been a lot more entertaining than F1 recently. I personally would like to see Indy car go back to when it was CART and you had pretty much all the manufacturers involved.
[QUOTE="Adrian Thompson, post: 147219744, member: 7444"
Again, pleas tell me why the idea of Ferrari in Indy car is such an anathema to you?[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your long post. You got me completely wrong. I am a 70 y.o.Brit, who doesn’t look down on Indycar and oval racing. I think Indycar is a brillant national series (perhaps the best), like CART was before. I have nothing against a specs series either, since reducing costs and the arms race make sense to me. So, I am rather favourable to your racing ; F1 could learn a lot from it ! In fact, I hoped for a while that CART would spread worldwide and challenge F1 at the time. It wasn’t to be.
In another thread « F1 now », I even got some flack for daring to propose a merger between Indycar and F1 !!
I have nothing against Ferrari going to the States either. But, as it stands, I think it would not serve Ferrari’s image to become an engine supplier in a specs series. Ferrari has been supplying engines to F1 teams, sometimes under a different name too, lile Minardi, Prost, Sauber, Haas, etc… but that didn’t lift their profile, did dit ? Nobody noticed, or remembers now. What matters is Scuderia Ferrari as a team, not a Ferrari engine in another car. The tifosi don’t go wild when they see a Ferrari-powered Haas or a Sauber overtaking another car . Most Ferrari followers don’t identify with these teams, even if they use Ferrari engines. Many F1 fans and the tifosi have an emotional attachment with Scuderia Ferrari, not bits of Ferrari !!! I honestly don’t think Ferrari would carry the same support it has in F1 if it only became an Indycar engine supplier.
Like you explained, I can understand the reasons for Ferrari to sell engines : spreading the cost, gather more data, etc… But it doesn’t bring anything else. Going to the States under anything else than Scuderia Ferrari with its own cars, chassis and engines will not bring any more value to the brand. In the States, they don’t even call the cars by their names, just say « it’s Ganassi that won », or « A Penske car made pole position ». They would just carry on doing the same if their cars had Ferrari engines.That’s what I was trying to put across, and certainly not looking down on Indycar.
That scenario that was CART in the late '80's and '90's will, more that likely, never be duplicated, sad to say. We had many eager sponsors with the wealthiest being the tobacco companies. Then it developed into first a chassis war and a high stakes tire war. Then, there were the four engine manufacturers of Ford, Honda, Mercedes and Toyota. Even the years immediately following the split of 1995, the wealth in the paddock was palpable. Add to the fact that most of the races were on ABC with just few relegated to cable. Again, everything was just about perfect. But, by 2001 the effects of the split were beginning to show and it was never the same. At this point in the story I usually like to blame the total idiocy of Tony George, but the withdrawal of the tobacco money is equally to blame.
Now in charge, Penske will have to strike a balance between bringing more competition to liven up the series, whilst controlling the costs.
That's the hard bit. I hope he succeeds.
Moving from a specs series to a more open one risks bringing an arms war, and some casualties.
Most people who do not follow it, probably don't realize that half of the IndyCar races are road races. And, if you are new to NASCAR it will take a very long time to learn its nuances and strategies.