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Ferrari and Indy Car

Discussion in 'F1' started by Sig. Roma, May 15, 2020.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Indycar has moved from being typically oval racing since CART was created. Ovals were mainly USAC, I believe.
    Under CART, the goal was to have 1/3 ovals, 1/3 street circuits and 1/3 road races. I don' know if they ever achieved that balance.
    Some ovals have shown their limits, and would be simply too fast to be safe, I understand.
     
  2. Borrow’d Mine

    Borrow’d Mine Karting
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    Thanks for your long post. You got me completely wrong. I am a 70 y.o.Brit, who doesn’t look down on Indycar and oval racing. I think Indycar is a brillant national series (perhaps the best), like CART was before. I have nothing against a specs series either, since reducing costs and the arms race make sense to me. So, I am rather favourable to your racing ; F1 could learn a lot from it ! In fact, I hoped for a while that CART would spread worldwide and challenge F1 at the time. It wasn’t to be.

    In another thread « F1 now », I even got some flack for daring to propose a merger between Indycar and F1 !!

    I have nothing against Ferrari going to the States either. But, as it stands, I think it would not serve Ferrari’s image to become an engine supplier in a specs series. Ferrari has been supplying engines to F1 teams, sometimes under a different name too, lile Minardi, Prost, Sauber, Haas, etc… but that didn’t lift their profile, did dit ? Nobody noticed, or remembers now. What matters is Scuderia Ferrari as a team, not a Ferrari engine in another car. The tifosi don’t go wild when they see a Ferrari-powered Haas or a Sauber overtaking another car . Most Ferrari followers don’t identify with these teams, even if they use Ferrari engines. Many F1 fans and the tifosi have an emotional attachment with Scuderia Ferrari, not bits of Ferrari !!! I honestly don’t think Ferrari would carry the same support it has in F1 if it only became an Indycar engine supplier.

    Like you explained, I can understand the reasons for Ferrari to sell engines : spreading the cost, gather more data, etc… But it doesn’t bring anything else. Going to the States under anything else than Scuderia Ferrari with its own cars, chassis and engines will not bring any more value to the brand. In the States, they don’t even call the cars by their names, just say « it’s Ganassi that won », or « A Penske car made pole position ». They would just carry on doing the same if their cars had Ferrari engines.That’s what I was trying to put across, and certainly not looking down on Indycar.[/QUOTE]

    Well stated and I agree. Personally, I believe stepping up their endurance/sports car profile would do a lot for the marque. Cars in that format are recognizable and even those who don’t follow racing recognize a picture of a beautiful car in an ad. Enzo’s early racing cars still looked like something you might drive on the street.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  3. 444sp

    444sp Formula Junior

    Dec 18, 2016
    389
    The theme of Ferrari with Indy Cars or WEC for me is very different this time to the others times. Now they are not threatening to leave F1.
    I suppose that all this will depend on how much budget is available after the Covid 19, but now the budget of Ferrari is about 300 or 350 millions and the budget limit for 2021 will be 145 millions therefore there will be a lot of budget available to make F1, WEC and Indy Cars all together.
    In addition, a Hypercar WEC program would allow to recover a large part of the development expenses with the sale of the cars. I remember that they sold 40 Ferraris 333 SP and they planned to sell 25 F50 GT.
    In Indy Cars maybe it could be 6, 7 or 8 Ferraris on the grid.
    Also I suppose that they will be analyzing if they could develop in Indy or in the WEC pieces that later could be used in F1 and of course this development would be outside of the 145 millions. I remember that the current V6 Hybrid was tested in 2013 on a LaFerrari prototype. Toyota will make a test of 24 hours in Paul Richard in the next 2 months with the TS050 and that is prohibited in F1, and also the hours of wind tunnel and CFD will be limited.
     
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  4. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    12,610
    “Aerodynamics are for people who can’t build engines.”

    “I build engines and attach wheels to them.”

    I'm pretty certain Enzo Ferrari is rolling in his grave hearing he would be opposed to building engines for IndyCar as he was pretty vocal about being a race engine builder.
     
  5. CRG125

    CRG125 Formula 3

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    Vivek

    Agreed, I honestly think at the peak of Champ car they were on the same level as F1. I remember watching Long Beach Grandprix in 1999, same year I attended Monaco and was blown away of how fast Champ car was back then.
     
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  6. CRG125

    CRG125 Formula 3

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    By the way my son is planned to race Road to Indy F2000 series later this season. Maybe I should start having talks with Ferrari now for 2022 :)
     
  7. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    Try Williams first ...almost guaranteed a drive with Super Licence in hand.;)
     
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  8. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    (Correction): "Try Williams first ...almost guaranteed a drive with Super Licence (and appropriate amount of cash) in hand."

    :)
     
  9. Adrian Thompson

    Adrian Thompson Karting

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    William, thanks for a great reply. It’s good to know people can still respectfully disagree with each other without being rude.
     
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  10. 444sp

    444sp Formula Junior

    Dec 18, 2016
    389
    Andretti wants all-Italian Dallara v Ferrari battle in IndyCar
    "Having Ferrari would be incredible. Not only as an engine supplier, but also as a chassis builder," said the 1978 F1 world champion and four-time IndyCar champion.

    "It is clear that the rules should be changed, but I would like an all-Italian Dallara vs. Ferrari battle. The Cavallino would increase interest in the championship, but there is an obstacle in the rules.

    "I suggest Binotto comes and proposes an idea to Roger Penske."

    Indeed, Ferrari's involvement in the US series would require a rule change that would open up current engine and chassis supply agreements beyond Honda and Chevrolet for the former, and Dallara for the latter.

    https://f1i.com/news/373057-andretti-wants-all-italian-dallara-v-ferrari-battle-in-indycar.html
     
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  11. GTS Bruce

    GTS Bruce Pisses in your Cheerios

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    This would be very entertaining. Indycar Italian fire drill tactics and strategy.
     
  12. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    This time around, Ferrari doesn't have to go to all the trouble of designing and producing a car just for the scare, it can just buy one off the shelf....:)
     
  13. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    That's what I kept saying !!!

    Indycar has to move from a specs series to an open series.
    At that level, you need to convince the participants to accept a rule change.
     
  14. TeamF1Jr

    TeamF1Jr Formula 3
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    #39 TeamF1Jr, May 22, 2020
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
    2 bits of news:

    Don't know how feasible this is, but if Indycar allows rule changes for chassis/aero development, Ferrari possibly could use elements on Indycar that essentially can be transferred to the F1 car. Obviously the cars are different, but there may be some transferable aero parts. Essentially Ferrari sees it as a way to cheat given F1's limited testing.

    Other news, Piero came out today and said his Dad wanted an Indy 500 win. You always wonder how much pull Piero has these days, I guess we'll see.

    BTW don't ignore the Penske Philip Morris connection hence Ferrari Marlboro connection
     
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  15. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Accepting the IndyCar rules change premise, how, still, would Ferrari be able to test them on the F1 car with that same limited F1 testing? (although I don't see the crossover in the first place, but, if anything, I see it more realistically the opposite direction, again, if IndyCar allows development which I don't see changing anytime soon. The formula (non-development, spec/kit cars) works too well for "fans" equalized, close "racing" as is....)

    What's the Penske/Ferrari Phillip Morris/Marlboro connection?
     
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  16. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Alex Rossi where he belongs: In a Ferrari.:)
     
  17. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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  18. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
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    Brickyard pounded the wire wheels too much!
     
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  19. TeamF1Jr

    TeamF1Jr Formula 3
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    Currently in year 2020, there is shared membership on the boards between Philip Morris and Penske. Roger was on the Philip Morris board for something like 20 years, but its been a while since he left. Not that its the magic bullet in all of this, but shared membership can't be ignored either.

    The shared technological advantage is speculation. I assume if Indycar opens it's development up, let's say aero elements, like front wings for example. Ferrari F1 is limited to CFD in Maranello testing wise, so let's say they do that then send the design parameters to Ferrari Indy who installs it on their car on a road course, they then share data. Again, who knows what rule changes there will be or if the data from the Indycar will mean anything. There is no reason you couldn't use Flow-Viz paint on the aero parts in Indy to see if it matches what the CFD says in Maranello, but I assume any validation ends there as any air flow past the wings benefits an individual chassis design and that's where the similarities end.
     
  20. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    (A) But what to do with changing all the rules so Ferrari may come to IndyCar (the whole package)? Or, are we just talking engines?
    If doing the McLaren route (buy into what exists, Dallara, Chevy/Honda and slapping "Ferrari" on the sides) , 'not important at all.....

    (B) The only example, perhaps.....as.....

    (C) .....the rest of the car is ever so important. I feel I don't have to explain to you but the total package is dependent on more than just the wing itself. One can design the theoretichally "perfect' front wing and it might work on this car but not that,. or on that car but not this. Or both. Or neither.

    Then, what are the rules for each series regarding the parameterx for the wings? Length, chord, height, endplates, location in relation to the front axle....etc., etc.., etc.....
    Again, this is just the front wing. A very loooonnnggg way to go from there.

    Methinks some think things are all so simple, when in reality they are not at all.
     
  21. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    I am very intrigued to see how Ferrari will participate in Indycar, if it ever happens.
     
  22. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    #47 lorenzobandini, May 22, 2020
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
  23. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Two big problems

    1) building a turbo V8 alcohol engine. Tons of cost and development and could be potentially embarrassing
    2) the spec chassis not made by Ferrari

    A third problem
    3) like McLaren, it might not really be an Italian team. It might be American with Ferrari logos.

    In a nutshell, I don't buy it given the Indy car ratings. Yes, Indy gets high ratings but the rest of the year its pretty poor.
     
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  24. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    That's what I'm talkin' about..... Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  25. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Rookie
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    Is it possible that Ferrari could use an "Indy Car" project as a way of testing F1 parts on track (outside of the F1 testing restrictions) and not labeling them as F1. They could run as many laps as they like, using and Indy formula engine (buy an old Honda) but the chassis and aero and all the other technology would be being developed for F1. They wouldn't have to show it to anyone...but the information could escape to the F1 team.
     
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