Ferrari back to LMP1 ?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by greyboxer, May 9, 2018.

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  1. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2008
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    I readily agree that manufacturers' interest interest in prototype racing demonstrates better technology that's frequently passed down (and sometimes passed in the other direction also) to their road vehicles. But standing trackside at Daytona, LeMans, Road Atlanta, etc, I don't think the typical endurance racing fan cares whether an engine is a hybrid or not. If it sounds good and goes fast it's interesting. And it's indisputable that there is a cycle of rising costs killing Can Am, GTP, LMP 1, etc, which then starts the mythical "affordable racing" cycle all over again.
     
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  2. rdefabri

    rdefabri Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Agreed - hybrid is idiotic as it has no practical application in autos outside of Europe. Fine if you want a Euro only series, but that's very limiting and would likely a death sentence.
     
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  3. rdefabri

    rdefabri Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't think it will grow far. I did some analysis a few months back, the sales of hybrids as a ratio of overall auto sales is something like 1% globally. Even the most optimistic hybrid / green prognosticators think the market will bear no more than 30% adoption over the next 25 years.

    Hybrid / green is a marketing ploy, and a ****ty one at that. I'm fine with giving teams the option to do it, but mandating it's moronic, drives up cost, and makes for a boring series.

    The solution is so academic, so basic, no one can see it. You have to get back to allowing team and privateers the ability to innovate - a "run what you brung" model. Over regulating that effectively creates a spec series, which sucks and bores the hell out of me (see: hybrid).

    Nearly every racing series is struggling with the same thing. Nearly every racing series is struggling to survive. I long for the days when privateers like Smokey Yunick could enter shade tree specials.

    Lame.
     
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  4. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini Formula 3
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    Yes I did. Hybrid, as you said, does not interest most (that I know) sportscar racing fans.

    I think you misundrestood my question. I am curious about your reasoning for thinking NASCAR/IMSA will adopt FIA/WEC/ACO hybrid rules?
    I don't see it happening. My reasoning? The dinosaur mentality that exists over here. Again, I don't prefer it but I hafta' agree with BW, sooner or later, it's gonna' be; and at that time, independent teams will be able to swing it as it will be staple tech'. ;)
    As usual, I'm glad I caught the good stuff. :) 'Feel sorry for those who just got into racing since '90ish. They missed out.:(
     
  5. Devilsolsi

    Devilsolsi F1 Veteran
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    IMSA has been working towards parity with the FIA/ACO for a long time. It is the French who have been less receptive, not the other way around.

    As the new LMP1 (or whatever it will be called) regulations are getting designed, IMSA is in the middle of those discussions.

    https://racer.com/2018/04/13/fia-aco-and-imsa-push-on-in-race-to-shape-prototype-racing-s-future/
     
  6. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini Formula 3
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    Understood. "Parity" with FIA/ACO doesn't necessarily mean we'll be adopting hybrid regs.
    Just as FIA/ACO had in the past, there could again be hybrid/non-hybrid vehicles in the same class. ;)
     
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  8. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Boy is that the truth! And the irony is that prototype racing is the most audibly and visually diverse of all racing's upper echelon series. Indycar, NAPCAR and even Formula 1 have prescribed engine sizes, number of cylinders, induction method, and bodywork. In any of those series if you painted all the cars white it would be impossible to tell one from the other. Comparatively speaking, prototypes are the opposite: they don't have mandates for engine configuration, induction method, number of cylinders, bodywork (except for the survival cell), etc. The prototype cars that ran at this year's Daytona 24 could easily be distinguished from each other ... even at 3 am after libations around the campfire!

    Limit any expense that will not add to the spectacle but will push up the cost. And hybrids, this means you!
     
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  9. Devilsolsi

    Devilsolsi F1 Veteran
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    I guess we will have to see. IMSA has had the goal of having their teams be able to run at LeMans, so if there is a way to adopt the P1 regs, and keep the car count, I would expect them to do it.

    Don't forget that back in the ALMS days we had a P1 class. It was only axed because there just wasn't enough consistent participation in the class.
     
  10. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    Having said everything above, I will say this: I'll bet everyone on this website would love to see Ferrari back in prototype racing. I was at Daytona when they ran from 1995 until about 2001, and the interest the 333 SP generated was monumental. Let's face it, everyone either loves Ferrari or they want to be watching when the prancing horse's butt gets kicked. Part of the 333's appeal was that anyone with $$ could - and many did - run one, and in that respect it was reminiscent of the GT 40 days. It was a brilliant melding of the history & mystique of Ferrari with (relative) accessibility to serious competitors who wanted to campaign the car ... Wayne Taylor, Andy Evans (x2), that yellow car with the Swiss flag on it ... it wasn't just Gianpierro and the Momo car. Maybe part of the logic for cessation of Porsche's recent LMP effort was that there weren't 6 or 7 of them on the grid.
     
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  11. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    Exactly; those cars.
    Lorenzo, I gotta say you have a lot of research acumen!
     
  12. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini Formula 3
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    Being my passion and having been there (following and participating in) racing, it's easy. :)

    (Too bad I haven't/don't make any $$$ from it. :()
     
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  14. rdefabri

    rdefabri Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 4, 2008
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  15. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 Veteran
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    Seems encouraging.

    "The rules, which have the working title of 'GTP', will allow for manufacturers to give their prototype machinery the look of one of their road-going sportscars. "
    ...
    "
    The manufacturers around the table during the formulation of the new rules were Toyota, McLaren, Aston Martin, and Ferrari."
     
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  16. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini Formula 3
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    Excellent. At least somebody's interested.

    edit: Build it. They will come.
     
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  17. 444sp

    444sp Formula Junior

    Dec 18, 2016
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    FIA technical director Gilles Simon says the 2020 prototype regulations will not see “extreme” technical development but instead refined areas that will produce a more cost-effective environment for manufacturers.

    The new regs, which the FIA has stated is based off ‘hypercar’ concept designs, will be announced on Friday in Le Mans and is expected to be utilized from the 2020-21 World Endurance Championship season.

    Released in a Q&A in the latest issue of the FIA’s AUTO magazine, Simon revealed further details on the forthcoming, yet-to-be-named platform.

    “The first goal is to have one set of regulations that is not going into extreme technological development, so that we can set a regulation that all the competitors can have access to, but which will be compulsory for everybody,” said Simon.

    He said the current proposal, which went through the FIA World Motor Sport Council last week, is based on a number of “limiting parameters” that will eliminate the need for Equivalence of Technology.

    “Very roughly, it’s where we control the engine performance, the hybrid system performance and the aero performance, and you define the car with which you want to compete but it cannot be more than this horsepower, more than this kilowatts from the electric [motor], more than these aero figures,” he said.

    “We want to set up some physical boundaries and put the numbers in the right place so that competitors can reach them but also have to reach them to be competitive.

    “This means that we will not have any Equivalence of Technology – this is, you can make this horsepower with that fuel flow, and the number of cylinders is your choice, the architecture of the engine is your choice etc.

    “Maybe it’s because you have some brand identification, you want a four-cylinder, 12 cylinder, whatever you want but you have to go to these figures.

    “Aero-wise it will be the same, this is the maximum downforce you can reach and that we measure, and this is the limiting factor, then you are free on the design of the car to reach those numbers.”

    The FIA’s proposed budget reduction, which would see manufacturers operating at one-quarter of the current LMP1 hybrid budgets, would put costs in line with current LMP1 privateers, but with hybrid power, according to Simon.

    Privateers, meanwhile, will continue to be encouraged to compete in the top class as well.

    “With the new LMP1 category, our target is to have it in the same range of costs for privateers at the current non-hybrid LMP1 level, while we include also hybrid technology into it,” he said.

    “Not as sophisticated or complex as we have seen in recent years, but quite interesting to have the technology too. So, we believe there will be an interest for privateers to run in the LMP1 category.”

    Simon said hybrid systems will be available “at quite a reasonable price” but has essentially ruled out prospects of a spec unit being adopted class-wide.

    Sportscar365 understands that manufacturers could be required to make its powertrains available to customers, possibly under a cost-cap format similar to what’s seen in the ABB FIA Formula E Championship.

    http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/simon-fia-new-regs-to-avoid-extreme-tech-development/

    These parameters of what will be the new rules sounds very encouraging for the return of Ferrari and with a V12 engine.
     
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  18. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    Bring it!!!
    Here is something to ponder: will the Ford prototype be the same as the Ford GT? :D
    Will the Porsche prototype be a mid-engined 911>
     
  19. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I think it's Mercedes who should jump to LMP1. They have nothing more to prove in F1, but they last left Le Mans with their tail between their legs in 1999 after their cars thought they were flying machines and wound up (in one case) in the woods. At Le Mans they definitely have something to prove!
     
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  20. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    Electrification only on the front axle? This is less complex than the current hypercars! A backward step too far IMO.
     
  21. Devilsolsi

    Devilsolsi F1 Veteran
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    What happens with the LMP2 class then? It seems like they are the odd man out with all the other classes at least appearing to be road car based.
     
  22. rdefabri

    rdefabri Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I'd eliminate it all together, so from my perspective it's still too much. :)
     
  23. Devilsolsi

    Devilsolsi F1 Veteran
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    I agree with this. I don't see the point in having a spec hybrid unit. Either let the teams develop their own systems, or don't have one at all. I don't see what a spec hybrid unit accomplishes.
     
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  24. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Hybrid idiotic ? I don't think so.

    You will find soon, that hybrid will be the only solution to use cars in urban areas, leaving ICE power only for uninhabited zones.
    The reason is pollution.
    I know that in the US, the leaders are blindfolded and prefer to keep the public ignorant of these concerns, but it will catch up with you too.

    You could say that it's irrelevant to motor racing, and you could be right to a point, but R & D are excellent selling points to convince companies to invest in the sport.
     

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