News

Ferrari back to LMP1 ?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by greyboxer, May 9, 2018.

  1. rdefabri

    rdefabri Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 4, 2008
    27,430
    NJ
    Has nothing to do with being blindsided and everything to do with the EROEI. Hybrid will never take hold here, the cost of oil and the efficiency with which it generates energy dictates it to be so.

    By the time the reserves (of which there are estimated over 200 years in the US alone) are used up, nuclear fusion will be a reality. Electrical and other alternative energy sources could never generate enough to meet our demand, let alone globally.

    In Europe - especially countries reliant on foreign oil - hybrid makes much more sense. That's why the Ukraine is such a hot bed.
     
  2. maha

    maha Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2014
    684
    dinajpur, bangladesh
    Full Name:
    mahmud
    ferraris v6 f1 test mule 2014.. it evokes idea of gtp prototype
    [​IMG]
     
    Fernardi, crinoid and G. Pepper like this.
  3. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    11,645
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles

    Like I said, the hybrid path chosen by many countries in the world, has absolutely nothing to do with access to oil, or its cost, but with pollution.
    Maybe you do not have the same concern about air quality we have here in Europe (the proof is that the USA pulled out of the Kyoto Treaty), but we want to take steps to improve it.
    We systematically monitor air quality in towns, measure the level of CO2, or NOX particules, etc... When it is critical, some towns stop all traffic until it reaches an acceptable level. Who can drive then? Only vehicles under electric power.
    More and more cities in Europe ban traffic to ICE vehicles; only hybrid vehicles under electric power, or electric vehicles are allowed.
    Of course, you can drive on the petrol engine out of towns, but not in urban areas.
    If the cars are to survive, they have to become hybrid within 10 to 15 years at most.
    Some European countries (China too) have decided to ban the manufacture and sale of ICE powered cars soon (Germany 2030, France 2040, etc...)
    Already, after 2020, there will be strong incentive (fiscal) to buy hybrid vehicles. Why do you think all the manufacturers switch to hybrid or electric? Including the luxury brands like, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Land Rover, etc...
    So this has nothing to do with oil reserves, or the availability of oil, but purely with carbon emission. The car industry will adapt, or it will disappear.
    If you think you can live in a bubble in the US, and ignore the facts, like your government wants you to, it's up to you, but you will only fall behind in technology, nothing else.


    BTW, some oil producing countries in the Middle East, are big investors in alternative energy research !!
     
    Adrian Thompson likes this.
  4. rdefabri

    rdefabri Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 4, 2008
    27,430
    NJ
    You missed my point. You still need to generate that energy, and that energy will still be generated by oil or nuclear. Pollution has nothing to do with it - it has to do with thermodynamics... you can't more out than you invest. Until an alternative energy source can be found that is more efficient than fossil fuels, it will be nothing more than folly.

    Nuclear fusion is the only answer.
     
    Igor Ound likes this.
  5. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    11,645
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    What seems to escape you is that the use of fossil fuel to power vehicles in large urban concentrations is under threat because it affects health and quality of life.
    So ICE engines will be banned in town in the near future, that you like it or not. There is no point burying your head in the sand about it. Wait for when some collectives start suing local authorities because of the increase in respiratory problems, recrudescence of asthma, children born with defects, high rate of cancers, etc... Do not underestimate the power of lobbies !

    It doesn't matter if it's less efficient to generate electricity to power vehicles or if that electricity comes from fossil fuels, as long as it is done far from towns, large concentration of habitat, and doesn't affect the health of millions of people. Beside, we have hardly harnessed all the various sources of energy available, for the simple reason that governments and oil companies had steered us in a different direction: one that serves their interest. Nuclear is also a fossil fuel, it comes with pollution and danger, so it's far from ideal.

    Don't think that my position is extreme. My son is a physicist, who worked for years for Westinghouse in a nuclear power station in Sweden. Now, he is a convert to renewable energy and swears by solar, wind and tide power. Scandinavia, Germany and several other countries are giving up nuclear. And Sweden is far from being a densely populated country!
     
  6. therryzsx

    therryzsx Formula Junior

    Dec 2, 2011
    457
    so in 2020 hypercars will come back to le mans 24?
     
  7. Adrian Thompson

    Adrian Thompson Karting

    Apr 28, 2004
    160
    Beverly Hills, Mi
    Full Name:
    Adrian Thompson
    No. The cars will have styling Q's to link them too road cars, but they will not be based in any way on any road cars. I doubt we'll see things like the 911 GT1, Nissan R390 or the Mercedes CLR. Instead it'll be an LMP1 type chassis with bodywork in the vein of those cars.
     
  8. maha

    maha Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2014
    684
    dinajpur, bangladesh
    Full Name:
    mahmud
    Ford, Ferrari Exit 2020 ‘Hypercar’ Talks
    Ford, Ferrari exit FIA/ACO’s ‘Hypercar’ technical working group meetings…

    • [​IMG]
    • by

      John Dagys
    • Ford and Ferrari are among the manufacturers no longer attending the meetings to shape the FIA and ACO’s proposed ‘Hypercar’ regulations, which are due to come into force in the 2020-21 World Endurance Championship.

      Sportscar365 has learned that both automakers, along with Porsche, which were among the half-dozen manufacturers in roundtable discussions prior to the ACO’s announcement of the platform at Le Mans in June, have been absent from recent technical working group meetings in Paris.

      It’s understood up to 15 invites were sent to manufacturers, constructors and suppliers, with active involvement from only Toyota and Aston Martin on the OEM front and McLaren represented by an employee from McLaren Applied Technologies.

      Representatives from leading prototype constructors ORECA and Onroak Automotive, however, have also been present, along with engine supplier Gibson.

      While attendance is not mandatory, manufacturers that do not participate in the meetings are unable to provide direct input into the shape of the regulations, and have historically not taken up programs.

      Ford Performance global motorsports director Mark Rushbrook acknowledged its absence from meetings but said they are still monitoring developments from afar.

      It comes amid speculation that Ford has already committed internally to a DPi program for as early as 2019.

      “We’re still following the process to see where it goes,” Rushbrook told Sportscar365.

      “We’ve established what our principles are that would interest us in that series or not and we’re following along to see where it ends up.”

      Rushbrook indicated that Ford will not enter the yet-to-be-named top prototype class in the WEC unless the same platform is utilized in the IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship, which is due for a regulations refresh in 2022.

      “Our principles are that it’s got to be global, meaning the same set of rules exist in WEC and IMSA, it’s got to be affordable and it’s got to be relevant,” he said.

      A rift with the ACO stemming from the 24 Hours of Le Mans, which saw the Ferrari 488 GTEs struggle in GTE-Pro following multiple class-wide balance of performance adjustments, is believed to have contributed to the Italian manufacturer’s departure from the talks.

      Atherton: “Nothing’s Changed” on IMSA’s Position

      IMSA President Scott Atherton says they remain committed to “seeing this process through” with the FIA and ACO before coming to a final decision on the potential adoption of the Hypercar regs.

      The proposed budgets, in the €25-30 million ($30-35 million) range, is the “biggest hurdle” for IMSA, according to Atherton, who confirmed that Simon Hodgson, its VP of competition, was in the initial TWG meeting last month.

      “Nothing’s changed from our perspective coming out of the announcements at Le Mans in that we’re committed to seeing this process through,” Atherton told Sportscar365.

      “The goal right now is to be aligned in this global platform which is coming at you full speed… It’s a full commitment on our part to see this through, and I think our voice in the room is valid.”

      Atherton said a decision will likely be taken during the finalization of the regulations, which are due to be presented to the FIA World Motor Sport Council for approval in early December.

      It’s understood the next meeting is set for later this month.



     
    chrixxx, NürScud and G. Pepper like this.
  9. maha

    maha Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2014
    684
    dinajpur, bangladesh
    Full Name:
    mahmud
    ferrari is back
    Ferrari, Ford still at negotiating table
    BMW has joined Toyota, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Ford and McLaren in the discussions on the hypercar concept rules - reports that Ferrari and Ford have not been present at the working group meetings are not accurate.

    Ferrari's position is that it "will not be leaving the table" until the rule-making process is complete, according to a spokesman.

    He said that Ferrari was working with the FIA and the ACO "to find a cost-effective solution that in our opinion should allow the possibility to exploit to the maximum the synergy with road car design and technologies".

    Ford was represented by Multimatic, which masterminds the Ford GT programme, at the latest meetings.

    The regulations are due to be finalised by the beginning of December so they can be signed off by the final FIA World Motor Sport Council of the year early in the month.
    https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/bmw-joins-2020-21-hypercar-rules-discussions/3176576/
     
    G. Pepper likes this.
  10. jcavalie

    jcavalie Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jun 4, 2005
    564
    Oakland, CA
    Full Name:
    Jim
  11. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    11,420
    Great racing. Thanks for the video.

    16R is one of my favorite race cars of all time (the #38 Fina shorttail F1 GTR in the video). The 993 GT1s always looked so odd to me, but the 996 lights were a nice upgrade in 1997. The 1998 911 version is an amazing machine and completely different, but I miss that naturally aspirated V12 at LeMans. The BMW V12 LMR ran the same engine and won in 1999...the last n/a V12 to do so. The V12s of Audi and Peugeot later were TT'd...no thanks.
     
    NürScud likes this.
  12. maha

    maha Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2014
    684
    dinajpur, bangladesh
    Full Name:
    mahmud
    #62 maha, Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  13. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 15, 2012
    10,735
    San Antonio, Texas
    Full Name:
    George Pepper
  14. Devilsolsi

    Devilsolsi F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 1, 2007
    5,741
    MD
    Full Name:
    Alex

    From what I recall Ferrari is only interested if it can supply customer cars. They aren't interested in a factory program. Ferrari will of course pretend to be interested just so they can leverage F1 in their favor.
     
    G. Pepper likes this.
  15. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2007
    6,816
    Chicago USA
    Full Name:
    Tom Tanner
    If anything Alfa or Maserati should get into this and forget about F1 as they will never be allowed to beat Ferrari anyway.
     
    Automoblog likes this.
  16. maha

    maha Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2014
    684
    dinajpur, bangladesh
    Full Name:
    mahmud
    Fillon: Manufacturer Request Led to Hypercar Production Rules
    Production requirements in the ‘hypercar’ top-level prototype class originated with some manufacturers requesting to run production-based equipment, according to ACO President Pierre Fillon.

    The requirements formed part of Wednesday’s technical regulations reveal, in which several key rules were established for the category concept.

    They state that manufacturers must build 25 road cars using production versions of their competition hybrid powertrains by the end of their first season in the FIA World Endurance Championship, with that number rising to 100 by the end of the second season.

    Fillon explained that the requirements were formed after some manufacturers requested to use a production-based combustion engine or energy recovery system.

    “The philosophy of the rules is not to use a road car and put the road car on the track,” he told Sportscar365.

    “[This] is more expensive than to produce a prototype with bodywork that looks like a hypercar. But, some manufacturers ask [for] the possibility to use some elements of the production car in the race car.

    “You can have some manufacturers that want to use elements of the road car, but the road car doesn’t exist yet.

    “So, the idea is, it will be possible to use some elements of the road car. It can be a hybrid system, for example, but you have to produce at least 25 [hybrid systems].

    “And if you want to use other elements of the road car, you have to have the commitment to produce 25 cars in a certain amount of time.”

    It’s now understood that manufacturers don’t need to meet the production demands if the engine or ERS system is not intended for a road car.

    ACO sporting director Vincent Beaumesnil confirmed to Sportscar365 that manufacturers can “build race parts without production requirements”.

    Fillon, meanwhile, suggested that teams wanting to operate outside the guidelines would need to obtain special dispensation from the FIA and ACO.

    “It’s to avoid manufacturers developing a specific hybrid system just for the race,” he said.

    “In the rules, we defined what this hybrid system will be. But you can have something not in the rules. [You can have] special authorization to use another thing.”

    Non-OEM constructors such as Onroak Automotive and ORECA will be allowed to build their own chassis and rent a hybrid system from an OEM.

    The regulations state that a manufacturer must make its ERS system available for two-car teams to lease at no more than €3 million per year.

    “For Ligier or for ORECA, they can produce their own chassis,” said Fillon.

    “But they cannot lease the hybrid system, for example. I don’t think that Ligier or ORECA will spend money to develop a hybrid system, but they can develop a car for sure – why not?”

    The hypercar rules, which will replace the current LMP1 category in the 2020-21 WEC season, are designed to increase spectator awareness of car brands.

    This will be led by technical rules that encourage manufacturers to build race cars with brand-specific bodywork that can also utilize production-focused powertrain technology.

    Plans to Grandfather Non-Hybrid LMP1

    Fillon added that non-hybrid LMP1 cars will be allowed to compete alongside hypercars in 2020-21 under a grandfathering system.

    He suggested there will be a window for co-habitation as teams transition to the new top-level formula before the LMP1 class is taken away.

    “In September 2020 we will not have all the manufacturers ready to run a full season with the new hypercar,” he said.

    “So the idea, for sure, is to have a grandfathered car. The LMP1 non-hybrid will continue to run, and we will continue to balance [it] with hypercar.”

    Fillon also said that the LMP2 class will need to be adapted to fit in with the projected 3:27 hypercar lap times at Le Mans.

    He said the FIA and ACO are “working on the next generation of LMP2” that will co-exist with the new formula beyond 2020-21.
    https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/hypercar-production-rules-originated-with-manufacturer/
     
    G. Pepper likes this.
  17. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,363
    I need an "ACO - common language" dictionary to understand that. So you don´t need to use a road car engine but if you do you have to build 100 units after the second season. But, why would you want to use road technology if it´s not mandatory? You could run a prototype without the hassle of building 100 road cars.
     
  18. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,363
    Ummm... uranium a fossil fuel?

    Anyway, nuclear fusion is around the corner. It´s a lot cleaner and safer than fision, and doesn´t rely on rare stuff only available in remote places.
     
  19. BartonWorkman

    BartonWorkman F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2003
    5,244
    En El 305
    Full Name:
    Barton Workman
    It seems Interesting that the FIA/ACO have gone this route especially when the ACO has
    staunchly fought against having a Supercar/Hypercar formula going back to the GT1 days
    when this sort of formula could have saved the category.

    Thinking back to when ALMS wanted to bring in the Maserati MC12 with Risi Competizione
    as the entrant. The resulting fallout nearly resulting in the ACO withdrawing the ALMS's license
    until the MC12 was declawed with ballast, restrictions and it would not qualify for points.

    Good to see they've finally moved past this.

    BHW
     
    Nortonious likes this.
  20. maha

    maha Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2014
    684
    dinajpur, bangladesh
    Full Name:
    mahmud
    https://racer.com/2018/12/17/ferrari-in-the-running-for-wec-hypercar-program/
    Ferrari Closing In On WEC ‘Hypercar’ Programme
    Factory programme in active planning stage

    17 December 2018, 6:02 PM

    [​IMG]

    Ferrari is one of a number of high profile manufacturers ready to commit to the next ‘Hypercar’ regulations set to replace the current LMP1 from the 2020/2021 FIA WEC season.

    Multiple industry sources have confirmed to DSC that the Italian supercar maker, which took part throughout the development process in the Technical Working Groups to develop the regulations, is actively evaluating a programme for the second season of the regulations: 2021/2022. The marque is understood to be awaiting the final technical regulations to determine whether the budgets it requires to meet its commercial objectives will be achievable.

    The impetus for the programme is believed to be driven centrally by Ferrari rather than an external partner team with the attraction of the regulations understood to be a combination of the hybrid powertrain (an area in which Ferrari have significant expertise), the visual cues with road going cars and the potential for a high profile global programme (including Le Mans) at a much reduced cost compared to previous regulations.

    Ferrari then joins Toyota (understood to be ready to commit for the opening year of the new ruleset), McLaren (development programme understood to be active), Aston Martin (Active participants in regulation development and evaluating options), Glickenhaus (targeting Year 1) and at least one other high profile manufacturer in playing an active part in the development of the new regulations with a view to potential entry into the fray.

    With timeframes tight, the first year of the new regulations looks almost certain to include grandfathered versions of the current generation of non-hybrid Privateer LMP1s, a matter that has been described by a senior insider as “an option that will be seriously considered depending on take-up of the new regulations in Year 1.”


    https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/mclaren-hypercar-category-2021-brown/4314114/
     
    G. Pepper and crinoid like this.
  21. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 2, 2005
    6,416
    Full Name:
    LaCrinoid
    Make way for the new rear mid V6.
     
  22. Devilsolsi

    Devilsolsi F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 1, 2007
    5,741
    MD
    Full Name:
    Alex
    If anything it will be a customer program. There is no chance in hell they have a factory LMP1, Hypercar, CarCar or whatever it is going to be called program.

    In 2014 Alonso was the official starter for Le Mans and there were all these rumors that Ferrari was coming back to LMP1. They even called a press conference to announce it. Of course it got cancelled shortly before it was to happen. It was all just to build leverage in F1.
     

Share This Page