Ferrari Badge To Rear Of 246 | Page 5 | FerrariChat

Ferrari Badge To Rear Of 246

Discussion in '206/246' started by azboater, Jan 4, 2008.

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  1. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

    Dec 3, 2003
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    Pursuant to the sale Ferrari SEFAC was constructively divided into two financially unequal halves.

    FIAT (Agnelli) bought 50% of the shares, and assumed dominion and control over the road car production half, leaving Enzo with control and dominion over the racing half. Of the 50% of the shares remaining Enzos 80% of those were to revert to FIAT upon his death, with Piero retaining 20%. (Ferrari, H. Lehbrink & R.W. Schlegelmitch, Konnenmann 1995)

    So in 1969 (typos excepted) FIAT effectively owned 90% of the road car production operation.

    I'm thinking Scaglietti's math got mangled in translation, by the agreement it was Enzo who owned 40% of Ferrari after 18/6/69.

    Quite. Narrowly avoiding the "Pinto Rampante"...
     
  2. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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    Market "confusion" may have been relevant then, it is not now.

    About two-thirds, actually, 246 vs 365 GTB/4, nearly half vs the later GTC/4.

    The Dino was developed and in production before the purchase deal with Agnelli was in play. An all-but-there prototype was shown at Turin in 1966, the production car was there a year later. I've never read/heard of a Dino rider in the purchase contract before, the earlier deal to produce the engines in quantity (ironically, after the "FIAT takeover" the engines were built by Ferrari) already resulting in FIAT's halo spider and coupe.

    "FIAT Dino 246GT"? ¿Que? "All accounts"?

    It's important to remember that it wasn't/isn't the FIAT Auto company that bought Ferrari, but the Agnellis' holding company, FIAT, that bought Ferrari.

    The Dino 246GTs are not and never were FIAT cars, and they most certainly were designed and built by Ferrari.

    ...And today it's spurious scudettos, some things never change, although Ferrari S.P.A did.
     
  3. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

    Feb 11, 2006
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    Andres
    I was more interested in the original topic of this thread (did Dinos ever come with a Ferrari badge at the rear?), which seems to have been answered (no, they didn't, but if you want to install one, that's all right), than its present subject - a philosophical issue that will forever be debated. Having lived for 23 years with a Stratos (whose only relation to Lancia is the badge on its nose), I can probably live with a Dino without a Ferrai badge. But never say "never." The "Ferrari" script badge looks good, and we car guys can never leave well enough alone.

    But - a friend lent me a book "Ferrari - The Road From Maranello," written by one Dennis Adler. He introduces the chapter on the Dino thus-

    "The Ferrari legend would not be complete without the Dino, even though it is a Fiat, not a Ferrari. In a very lose (sic) interpretation, the Dino is to Ferrari what the 914 was to Porsche, a less expensive companion model built by another company. (In Europe the 914 was a Volkswagen, not a Porsche.)"

    The book has nice pictures, but perhaps could be better edited. I didn't find new interesting information, and would probably be uncomfortable quoting it as authority. But it does have nuggets like the one quoted above from the author. I never heard of Adler, but the dust cover says he "is recognized as one of the leading automotive journalists in the world." To his credit, he does say the Dino "engines are as much Ferrari as they are Fiat!."

    Fortunately or unfortunately, Luigi Chinetti Jr. wrote the foreword to the book, which in my view could have been better written.
     
  4. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    Opus10583 - We can all rewrite history but its something we dont do over here, leave it to Hollywood. Fiat owned 40% of Ferrari in 1969, in 1998 they owned 80% upon his death.

    You should be a lawyer (perhaps you are) in counting something somebody hasn't got!!!

    Should the badge go on the back, I would say Yes. For the simple reason it is a Ferrari Dino 246GT. Ferrari cannot have it both ways. Saying the Dino margue is another make when it takes credit for the F1 world championship winning Dino 246. So we could have the discussion "Should Ferrari be stripped of its WC titles in that era"

    Its was called and marketed as a Ferrari Dino 206/ 246.

    Cheers
     
  5. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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    You haven't seen the post-WWII British propaganda films? My favorite is the one where the Brits break the sound barrier. I also love the one where they broke the Enigma code with shear pluck and strong tea, even though it was actually accomplished by capturing a code machine.

    FIAT got 50% of the shares and Enzo and Piero the other 50%: How do you figure 40%, Piero got 10% how do you figure 80%?

    It should not, it is not: It is a Dino 246GT by Ferrari.

    What do the concours guys say?
     
  6. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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    That's patent nonsense. FIAT did not ever build the Dino, and it was never and nowhere marketed as a FIAT.
     
  7. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    With the help of collossus, the first computer and you broke the sound barrier after the UK government gave up (or forced to give up?) the idea and handed all the research over to the USA.

    Propoganda for moral and proganda for BS are two very different things.
     
  8. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    This concours guy calls it a Ferrari Dino. You may call it what you wish.

    It all works out the same. By 1972, even though the car wasn't badged Ferrari on its exterior, the sales brochure called it a Ferrari and that's enough for me.

    At concours events, we compete against other Ferraris. There is no class just for the "Dino" line, and Fiat Dinos, Spyder or coupe, do not attend Ferrari Concours events, thereby eliminating the argument that the car is a Fiat in Ferrari clothes, or vice versa.

    The whole argument is @#$!@#@. Who cares if it was intended to start another line of cars for Ferrari, or if it was intended to BE a Ferrari. Now, it is called a Ferrari, and that's by the concours folks, Ferrari SpA (Dinos may register on the owner's site, they sell parts for the car, etc.) and at least my dealer, who used my car in his showroom photos for his website, nestled among other Ferraris.

    That's my $.02 on this.

    Play on.

    Dave
     
  9. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 20, 2004
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    Who's car? :)
     
  10. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
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    Rubbish ................you can win in F1 and call it a Dino, it's called branding and it's done all the time.The company Kimberly Clark branded a product called "Kleenex"

    What you are doing is trying to distort what the Ferrari factory originally chose to do and that is not to put the F badge on the car. If you were at a judged event would the FCA or other organizations mark you down for having the badge? IMO they should. I asked this question before but nobody answered " is the Ferrari script in the parts catalog for the 206/246 Dino" if it is in the catalog then Ferrari meant it to be on the car, if not it does not belong there IMO.
     
  11. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    I get the anology Velocetwo but it doesnt stick. We have to cast our minds back to 1969 and get behind the reasons. Firstly EF did not consider any car produced below his beloved V12's was not worthy of being called a Ferrari. It was then marketted as Dino under great pressure from Fiat to up the ante on sales and compete with the 911. They did actually experiment with a V12 Ferrari dino, but was not put into manufacture for some reason?

    In this period Ferrari sold the dino as a Dino and the price was pitched according to Ferrari prices. Had & if Fiat made the 246 they could not have charged Ferrari prices and therefore the car would have lost money.

    So, we have the Dino 206/246 sitting in the Ferrari show rooms hailed as a new car by Ferrari. It was constructed and built in Maranello but alas with no badge.

    UK buyers were wary of such a ploy and bulked at buying the car, therefore Maranello Concessaires UK fitted badges with the full knowledge of Ferrari in order to give the car its Ferrari credibility, think 1969 before you rubbish the idea. Why pay that sort of money for a "fiat" or a "dino"

    So if Concours judges want to knock off points, then so be it. Rather pedantic IMHO.

    Tony
     
  12. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
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    Left Coast

    The original question to the thread was "is it true that the 246 never had any Ferrari badges attached from the factory?".


    I understand that the UK dealerships made these changes, but it is obvious that Ferrari designed the cars without the badges and it appears the dealerships took it upon themselves to add the badges. one would have to wonder if Ferrari approved this and if they did, just how warm they were to the Idea. If Ferrari understood it helped marketing and was "all in" with adding the script why didn't they just add it to the standard manufacturing process and placing it on at the factory for the following years???
     
  13. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    1. EF refused to change his mind on this.
    2. UK dealers fitted these as they could not understand the logic behind it. I do recall reading the Colonel Ronny Hoare (Marenello UK) personally requested a change of thinking behind it.

    So the badges were put on the cars after they left the factory and with full knowledge of Ferrari.

    In fact some have suggested that Ferrari did it themselves when customers collected their cars from Maranello in Italy, although no evidence exists...yet. Some photo will materialize indicating this one day.

    The dino was only in production for a very short period in car terms, the sucessor to the 246GT had Ferrari badges and was marketted as a Ferrari Dino 308GT4. Perhaps this is how long it took the Italians to realise their mistake!!

    So it must be an emphatic NO, the Dino 206/246 never had a Ferrari badge but that doesnt stop it being a Ferrari which some advocate.
     
  14. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

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    I agree and was just quoting this author, who should perhaps been less definitive in his pronouncements, as there seems so little basis and much debate.
     
  15. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Wrong volume, issue #, and date. There wasn't a #26 for 2007 (at least not with my subscription). I checked 2006 too, and although there was a #26, I couldn't find the article . . . .

    Any information on the correct cite?
     
  16. michael bayer

    michael bayer Formula 3

    Aug 4, 2004
    1,292
    Well at the risk of being too pure on this, Fiat built all the motors for the 2.4 Fiat Dinos and the 2.4 Ferrari Dinos and Pininfarina made all the bodies and coachwork, Ferrari workers merely put the pieces together in the factory using two parallel assembly lines.
     
  17. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    Not true micheal
     
  18. michael bayer

    michael bayer Formula 3

    Aug 4, 2004
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    Tony: Please review the record, all of that is well documented in text and photos, M
     
  19. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    That is entirely correct.

    It baffles me that people can't just enjoy this wonderful car for what it is: A Dino.

    It baffles me that people have so little respect for the wishes of the man to whom we owe it all: Enzo Ferrari.

    It baffles me that Dino owners feel the need to punch holes in a Dino's body to advertise the car as a Ferrari: A reflection of their automotive insecurities?

    I own three Ferraris (real Ferraris) a part from my Dino: If I had to sell my cars (knock on wood), the last one to go would be the Dino. No doubt about it.

    Cheers,

    Julio
     
  20. michael bayer

    michael bayer Formula 3

    Aug 4, 2004
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    Julio: Absolutely, I have two vintage 12 cylinder Ferraris and a Dino Spider, I love them all. The genius of Enzo was the combinations he obtained from the coach builders, his suppliers, his racing teams and when he needed it, from Fiat where he got money or in the case of the 2 and 2.4, motors in the required quantity. The combinations were brilliant. The art for us is to understand from all that complexity he formed the wonders in our garages. M
     
  21. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    Hi Michael

    Correct if I am wrong but Scaglietti built the bodies and were transported the small distance to the Maranello factory to be finished. Ferrari designed and assembled their own engines as they are slightly different. Carbs and gearbox. Fiat just made the components, head, block etc

    BTW Pininnfarina is a design house used by Ferrari SpA, as was Bertone.

    Julio- So following you logic the Dino 308GT4 isnt a Ferrari then, why was the Dino name carried over to this car with all the Ferrari badges on it? Answer- Because Ferrari made mistake with the 206/246 car. IMO

    Cheers

    Tony
     
  22. michael bayer

    michael bayer Formula 3

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    Tony: There were two sets of Dino bodies delivered to the factory, the Scaglietti built 246s and the Pininfarina built 2400s, of course the Fiat built motors had different carbs for each but they arrived at the factory assembled, I do not know if they arrived with or without the carbs. The factory added the transmissions when they put the drive trains into the coachwork. My point is these terrific cars were aggregations of things Enzo bought, not things he formed, I love mine as it is the history important, the badging debate is irrelevant. M
     
  23. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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    What do they say about cavalino badges and deck script?
     
  24. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    Thanks for the info Michael. It has always been my understanding that the engine components were assembled in the factory by Ferrari. Of course the cars are an aggregate of many sourced out components. Most cars are, more so today.

    Do you know who made the gearboxes etc? and were the components came from in the way of spare parts ie Fiat or Ferrari?

    I agree with you on the badging, it is totally irrelevant to me too, the Dino will go down in history as the most beautiful car ever made. When you get 10 year olds come over to the car and drool over it, it must still strike the right note, 30+ years after it ceased production.

    Tony

    PS we have to consider the heritage when discussing this topic, unfortunately some other people have grasped the wrong end of the poker!!
     
  25. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    Oh so true, and we are so lucky to be able to enjoy it...
     

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