Ferrari F1 Versus Porsche PDK

The only way to get any kind of performance out of the 430 is to drive it in manual mode. Auto mode up shifts way to early and downshifts way too late undoubtedly to make a marginal improvement in fuel economy. It's designed to make EPA mileage figures bad as opposed to simply ridiculous.

 

I went from '11 911 GTS Cab DD into '07 F430 Spi sort of DD. Love the 911, especially GTS. In my opinion Porsche built the perfect car in that variant. Easy to drive every day, and an incredible track car with some Hoosers, and Pagid brake pads. PDK is absolutely incredible - smooth, and fast. Never upset the car dynamics as you shift in high speed corners, or under hard braking.

FCar is no where near that smooth. I had a 355 with F1, and now 430, and can tell you with no uncertainty it is still a much inferior shifter. Technical specs aside, the experience of shifting is much more upsetting to the car's stability under extreme driving/racing conditions. It is slow, jerky, and unsettling. After driving the GTS with PDK, I sometimes feel the whole clutch assembly is getting ready to fall out of the back of the Ferrari.

That said if you are tired of driving Porsches, and want an F430 Fcar, you have no choice, unless as some suggested, you want to go retro circa 90's and get a stick. As for me, I'll play with Ferrari for a bit, and then go back to Porsche.

BTW, Never drive the Ferrari in Auto mode - It's just not right.

 

I will add that some people don't want a smooth shift.

Notes:
1. The Lambo remapped the aventators shifting in the (race/track I forget) to have more of a slap in the back of your head feel.
2. The 458 remapped its dual-clutch for a more violent shift, I mean more "aggressive".

Two recent examples of DCTs and single clutch transmissions being programmed to be too smooth for the customer expectation.

I am not arguing your point, and I agree on the track; smooth is faster. Personally, I want a slap in the head at each hard shift. If I want smooth, I go with the date night "sport" setting. But hey, I don't track cars, too many tires

 

I agree. I've driven Porsche, Audi and BMW double clutch cars. Yes, they may be faster on a track but I don't care. They are boring, feels just like driving and automatic. My 355 F1 is much more fun.

 

Boxster Spyder manual to 997 GTS to 997 Turbo S to 430 Scuderia to current 599 GTB with HGTE. The 599 is the keeper!!!!!!!

I think the Scud after a 911 would not disappoint....might be a better choice than a 430 Spider unless you want the comfort and convertible at a price point that you would not get in and with the 16M.

The 599 HGTE is a nice combination of the Turbo S and the Scud for me. Its NOT point and shoot like the Scud and its as fast on the roads I drive as the Turbo S.

The PDK is an excellent transmission..... but there is nothing at all like an F1 Superfast transmission. I would not own a non- superfast F1.

The double clutch in the 458 is German, I think, and there have been a lot of problems with the transmission. With that said, the 458s I've driven shifted well but there is more fun with theF1 superfast...feels more natural.

As has been mentioned...DO NOT drive the F1 in automatic. Love the paddle shifting and that's the same I sis with my Porsche cars. Start practicing now to gt intothe habit while you look for your dream Ferrari!!

 

Aventador does not have a DCT and has been criticized for it's harshness. One big advantage of the DCT is clutch longevity, you don't have to worry about changing the clutch every 30k miles.

 

That's true. 458 gets tons of attention where ever it goes. It's like walking around with a supermodel in bikini, you just need to be ok with it. Lol.

But if you stick around 5000 miles a year then the annual really isn't that bad at about $1200-1500 per year.

 

Yep, indeed. The hard shifts are part of the experience and also for the driver that wants to keep on the power as best possible.

I have a friend that is a big Porsche guy and he complained the DPK is way too smooth and that he can't feel the shifts.

 

Djantlive- Auto mode does not slip the clutch more than manual mode. Where are you getting that nonsense?

Shift speeds vary with mode, but have very little affect on clutch wear, most of which occurs on starting from a dead stop. And auto and manual use the same algorithms from a dead stop so there is no additional wear there.

 

Sunday morning Starbucks run shifting is not same as performance shifting. Just have to watch F1 race in car cam. You want to be as smooth as possible. DD is personal preference, and that was the question that we all are trying to answer.

I was giving a true assessment of my experience. I feel that hard shifting is not for me. I need the car to perform in a smooth and predictable manner in order to feel comfortable with it's handling. It's not for everyone, I understand. Some need that kick in the a&&, but those who track their cars need to be smooth. Even with a manual car heal/toe is key.

No getting around it, 430 F1 shifting is a violent event compared to 911 PDK.

 

+1

 

Rick- I have never used it in mine after nearly 6 years, either, but I know how it works. Just hate to see old wives' tales propagated.

 

My Panamera GTS has a dual-clutch which is super fast on the gear change, but to be honest I find it a bit soulless. I think the the 458 has the same problem. The split second extra pause of the single clutch F1 transmission between changes and the rawness is just alot more rewarding to drive, albeit definitely slower. As already pointed out F1 is no good in auto mode and I believe it is also wears clutch quicker. But I personally only use paddles in my 430 which are soooo much fun!!

 

My 2012 997 911 Turbo S with PDK lasted 3 months in my garage. I found it a total bore to drive. Lightning fast, no soul whatsoever...
No comparing the driving experience with a Ferrari...Totally different, extremely visceral!!!

 

When trading in my modified GT2 for the SCUD, I was also considering a 458 or MP4. The dealer compared the SCUD and 458, the same as how my GT2 compared to a TTS. I have done many drives with friends in their TTS and my GT2, and we would switch in and out of each others cars. I hated their cars, it felt like a comfortable GT cruiser that was numb. They would get out of my car and just giggle and say "wow that is a ****ing race car".
I don't think the comparison really applies to the 458 and SCUD, but I know what he is getting at.
The harsh shifts, lack of insulation, and pure rawness of the SCUD is too muted with the 458. I will probably try 1 in the future, because they are sweet. Most likely will wait to pick up a used speciale.

 

Best advice would be to test drive a manual and an F1, see which you prefer.

If you are used to a modern DCT then the F1 may dissappoint you, but as it is not a DD it may not.

I found coming from a modern DCT to the F1 system was poor, what other people describe as raw I felt as badly engineered. In auto mode it should be smoother, every gear change felt like you had popped the clutch. I also found the 458 DCT to be poor as well on test drives.

I went with a 430 manual, to me, a Ferrari should be manual.

For reference, I have drove every DCT system there is in the UK, Porsche, Audi, BMW etc. the Porsche system is very good, the latest BMW DCT fitted to the F10 M5 and M3 is fantastic.

Neil

 

Let's not forget what the manual states (for my 360)


Page 3-23
Gear shifting will be “faster” if requested with the accelerator pedal pressed all the way down and over 7,000 rpm (sport mode selected)

and I always follow instructions....

 

Very interesting discussion, especially as I live with these issues every day. My 360 Spider is F1, my GTS cab is PDK and my GT3 is 3 pedal. Driving my Spider in sport mode with the paddles is much more enjoyable for me than the using the paddles in the GTS - even though the Porsche transmission is much newer. Of course, driving a Ferrari is usually more enjoyable than driving a Porsche for many reasons, other than just the transmission. But, for almost pure track use, the GT3 manual is more involving than the Spider's F1, although there are trade-offs. I never drive my 360 in auto and that is very similar with the PDK in my GTS.

The only true or accurate determination of which is "best" is to drive each in varying conditions and determine which is more suitable for you personally.

 

My 355 F1 is not like that at all. The shifts are much slower than a double-clutch but I never get the feeling that they are badly done. That might be due to the fact that my shop has gone over my F1 system and made sure everything is setup correctly. I noticed after the first time I had them service it that it behaved quite a bit better.

The worst thing to do in the 355 is taking off in 1st and then immediately letting off the gas. If you do that it in mine it might stumble a bit. I make sure to never do that. I've actually had a similar problem in Audi double clutch cars and even worse problems in BMWs. My BMW would occasionally would take much, much longer to downshift than usual. When you're pulling out into traffic that can be dangerous.

 

I disagree. Drive in auto mode if you like. It's been said many times that wears faster. Clutch wear is all about how shifts are done. Yes, most wear is done on hills, rolls from dead stop, and loading into transports.

I have over 30k miles and my clutch is now reading 33% worn. I think I am doing something right. Those that complaint about clutch wear at 15k miles sure don't.

 

Keep spreading old wives' tales. I bet you think the clutch slips continuously in reverse, too.
I do not use auto mode, but there is no need scaring off owners who want themselves or their wives to be able to use auto with no concerns.

Find me a pro who agrees with you and I will listen. Brian Crall has stomped on that one more than one time.

 

This is a silly discussion. Of course you can drive in auto mode and I guarantee the transmission will not fall out nor will the clutch wear out exponentially faster. Could it wear out slightly faster, probably not, but so what if it does. Don't you want to drive the car the way you want to drive it, be it paddles or auto. I don't like the ride in auto mode, but when my wife or daughter drives the car, it is auto.

I don't drive my GTS with PDK in auto either and have no idea of impact on clutch life, it is that I would rather use the paddles. What I actually am interested in how the new GT3 with PDK performs compared with my manual GT3 - I expect that I will find out in a few months at the track.

Rob in Potomac

 

If you already have a PDK then why not go for 3 pedal 430. Then you have the smooth DD and the more engaging weekend car. Been down this road before...but I'm also in the camp that is not big fan of the single clutch paddles. But to each their own....test drive then both and see what you like best.

I'm sure the new GT3 with PDK will be an absolute track animal in terms of all out performance...but there is reason the GT3 RS 4.0 is a collectors car already...last of its kind...end of an era so to speak...BTW nice collection of cars...you've got a nice variety there.

 

Of course DCT is newer more advanced and probably better engineered. And so it should be because they learned what had gone before. The Ferrari F1 automated manual was the best of breed when it was launched and during its sales life. It does n't make it badly engineered, just double clutch systems evolved from what was learned. The DCT is a slicker system which gives car manufacturers faster lap times/0-60/0-100 etc which is what they need to sell cars because they're compared against their competitiors as soon as they launch a car. In 10 years time all the Ferrari's, Porsche's, Mclarens will be small engined turbos packed with more and more electronics. No thanks.

Why do Ferrari's have to be manual? Do they have to be red as well? Alot of Ferrari owners including myself enjoy the F1 system, which is why 85% of 430s were sold with it!

 

I also compared the 458 DCT to other manufactures DCTs, the Ferrari one still seems poor. This is my opinion, which is why I suggested the OP test both versions.

The whole point of the OP is that he is coming from a modern PDK and looking at the F1 system, regardless of whether the F1 system is old or not or whether it was groundbreaking at the time, that is the comparison he is looking at.

If you are used to a modern german DCT then driving the Ferrari F1 system, even the 458 DCT is a very different experience. Some will like it, some will not.

I have driven autos as my DD for years, which in the UK is rare, only a small percentage of cars in the UK are sold as autos, although it's becoming more common. You don't notice a modern DCT changing gears, its like a CVT it's so smooth.

If you want to drive a Ferrari hard then the F1 system gives a nice experience, but the minute you try to drive it slower or in traffic the F1 system is too harsh, it is all in or nothing. That's why I found I could not live with the F1 system.

Yes, I believe you could spend time adjusting the F1 system as some have suggested so it is smoother, but I prefer the manual.

Neil