Okay, in the USA maybe, I want to believe you. But in France no, even on the biggest forum named ferrarista.
They were kept artificially high compared to the other 1000 or so ROW cars simply because those could not enter the US market and as such US buyers had little option but to pay more for one than the ROW examples were selling for during that time. As I said supply and demand. Obviously that is no longer the case, but the cache of owning a US spec example in the US remains for now in that market, but no where else.
Supply & demand = the market at any given time, whatever the reasons are, there's been nothing artificial about the USA F40 market for 25 years, including the years where demand was so poor that prices were very low as my personal situation illustrated. To underscore that USA F40 prices were never artificially high, it's worth noting that they haven't plummeted and in fact still do bring more money than a comparable Eu F40 despite the fact that people in the USA have had the option to buy a Eu F40 for the past decade.
The simple fact is that barrier for the first 25 years artificially inflated prices of US spec F40s. They are no better than a ROW example. If that barrier did not exist and US buyers had access to 1300 odd F40s instead of 200 odd then US spec cars would not have traded for much more than than a ROW example. When US spec cars were relatively cheap, ROW examples were even cheaper! In relative F40 terms it is an inferior spec, purely as a result of DOT regulations. The classic example is the converted 288s and the number that have had those ugly appendages removed since I speak as an enthusiast and observer not someone who had any financial interest in propping up US spec prices all those years. A ROW F40 can sell at any time in any market on the planet now, apart from California. A US spec is restricted by demand to the US market and specifically California, if that market was not so large then these days it would probably trade for less than a ROW F40.
Read the last part of my summary. California is the key still, the rest of the US is buying up ROW versions in droves now, plus all F40s have risen in recent years. At some point this is will have an effect on supply for the rest of the world, and will push up prices elsewhere, as I said the US dollar buys a lot of foreign currency at the moment, until that changes the flow will be one way into the US for these cars. Three biggest markets where F40s exist.
Why not expand on what you say, this is just a discussion after all, I will happily concede to alternative views if supported by facts. I own neither version by the way so have no financial interest regardless.
To be concrete, my friend is not ready to concede any reduction in his price. And it is an EUR Spec.......
after the EU F40 became available here in the US, prices of the US cars went up. The USA is the biggest market for these cars and there will continue to be more demand at the higher prices for the US cars, which we still see today.
Playing devil's advocate: as it stands today, and for a decade now, it is more straightforward (import cost, regulations, tax) for an American to get their hands on a Euro-spec car than it is the other way around. Thus, if one is going to argue that US-spec cars are protected and propped up in value in the States, then by that logic Euro-spec values are even more protected and propped up in Europe. The first Euro-spec F40's have been importable to the US with no strings attached since 2012 and 100% of the production has been importable since 2017. We haven't seen US-spec values collapse in response - in fact quite the opposite. Some people in this thread, including myself, might prefer the way the Euro-spec car looks, but the numbers simply do not lie. Also, I don't believe California specifically is really so walled off from Euro-spec F40's. Anybody who can afford $2,000,000 for the car can also afford $900 for the LLC registration and luxury tax to register it in Montana, which is a pretty common strategy for owners of all sorts of high-value vehicles - questions of legality aside. To rationalize (retroactively, with 20:20 hindsight) the higher value of the US-spec cars for people who just don't understand it, here are some things to consider: It's already been mentioned that they are rarer. Even if they were total crap (they're not), some people just want rarity. Some people pay more for 05/06 Ford GT's with no options simply because very few of them were spec'd with no options. US cars have more power (and more weight, but 'more power' sells in America) US cars are all non-adjust, which buyers worldwide prefer US cars are safer in an accident US cars all have air conditioning (I don't know the % of Euro cars) US cars have (arguably) more comfortable seats (even if I personally would rather have the buckets) US cars have more dashboard trim that raises the interior luxury from 2/10 to 3/10 US cars have fuel cells that do not require replacement Of course there are disadvantages too in the eyes of most buyers. They're all catalyzed, they're heavier, they have lower fuel capacity, they have extra rubber trim that many people don't like. But my point is that there are some legitimate advantages to the US-spec cars beyond just being protected in the walled garden of a wealthy market, which isn't true anymore anyway.
I could answer that US Spec cars are less popular in Europe because of the unsightly appendages on the bodywork and the higher weight. In addition, we have 6% VAT when entering Europe when the cars are 30 years old or more. Below 30 years, we must pay 20% VAT + 10% customs duties, i.e. purchase price + 30% for cars under 30 years old. With the price of cars going upper and upper in the USA, the cost of transport going up and the dollar going up a lot, I think imports went down a lot.
Have a look at the currency graphs I posted from that time, and do the math, the ROW cars were more expensive to buy in relative terms using dollars back then than they are now. Furthermore it was also in the interests of US based dealers/brokers at the time to promote the perceived rarity of a US spec car, and talk down the ROW versions in order to protect the market. In the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king, however the internet has now opened the eyes of canny US buyers in more recent times to the availability of alternatives from around the world, and they can deal direct if they so wish, cutting out the middle men. Covid lockdowns assisted in that it helped the market to start to trust buying cars blind, given they could not be viewed even at auction, it did not then matter where the auctions were actually held. There are many factors as to why a ROW car is now seen as attractive in the states. Once the floodgates opened, the blinkers of US dealers and brokers were forced off, those that stated not that long ago they would never deal with ROW examples now actively promote them even on here if there is money to be made. Eventually the main market for US spec F40s will simply be California and a few die hard old school buyers elsewhere around the country. As many know, the smart money is moving out of California big time, so that market will shrink as well. Any F40 will always be desirable, but I predict the gap in values will keep closing slowly but surely.
Since there are big market analysts here, $2.63M (today's eur/usd rate) is correct for an Euro F40 or is it too much? Some cars are really much more expensive and I wonder if they sell.....
Presumably your friends car with 14,000km? There are a number of other factors that would need to be known to determine a value, such as ownership history, service status and records, cosmetic condition, model year, configuration (cats/non, etc), etc, etc...
Very easy to answer: MY 1990, below 14,000 km, rosso corsa 300 / stoffa Vigogna, original paintwork (never repainted), 100% accident free (never repaired), all numbers matching (engine + gearbox/differential) , 3 owners since new (1 italian in 1990+ 1 french owner in 2008 + my french friend since 2017 at 4,000 km), full history, all books available (maintenance book + all invoices since 2008 included), Ferrari Classiche certified (red book), both fuel tanks + fire extinguisher kit replaced in 2021 at 10,500 km, main maintenance in 2020 at 9,200 km), like new condition, cat + non adjust, Tubi French Carfax available, of course Is that enough to determine its average value?
Of the many F40s we've sold in the past few decades, the total includes ever-increasing numbers of Eu/ROW F40s, we don't care if clients want USA F40s or Eu/ROW F40s, but the fact is some still want USA F40s and as you can see they still command strong numbers in the market. The notion that brokers and dealers weald influence over what people buy and thus can affect values in the market is patently false as is understood by anyone who ever tried to sell a single F40. Of course we do tend to extol the virtues of the variants, but ultimately collectors buy what they want, our job is to be knowledgeable about them and sell them. The notion that USA F40 values are somehow artificial or propped up is totally a false narrative. The only way any market is artificially set is if someone or a single entity controls the supply of a product by acquisition and withholding in the short term, the USA F40 has always been sold in a free market over the over term of over 30 years based on demand & supply. Even if this was affected by government regulations which existed as law, to use the term 'artificial' to describe it's value ant any point is wholly incorrect, especially when you remember the USA F40 was built for just the USA market where it has always been freely available. This point is further underscored by the fact that the trajectory of USA F40 values has not changed even after government mandates no longer apply. You are forgetting one other quite important thing: the USA F40 is materially different from the Eu/ROW F40 and so (including the Lexan Sliding Windows Eu/ROW F40s of which there are less than 100) they will always command a strong number because the USA F40 is five (5) times as rare as a Eu/ROW F40, production rarity matters. As an aside I have 2 clients who have both variants, and one of them had a long discussion with me about how he prefers the USA car which is materially different. He likes the fact that it came supplied with aluminum gas tanks which last forever, and he adores the 2-piece seats with reclining backs (as do I as I was reminded today). He also finds the USA car's build to be more robust and because the front & rear chassis and clams are reinforced, he feels safer in the USA car at speed. As regards performance, USA F40s have a final drive ratio of 10-29 versus the European cars 11-30, and given that the USA F40s achieve maximum torque of 58.8 kgm/427 ft lbs at 4300 rpm whereas European cars achieve this same torque at 4000 rpm, he finds the USA car very drivable at normal speeds which is what you are limited to those days. USA F40s are rated at or above 500 bhp @ 7000 rpm to accommodate the emissions restrictions so the dynamic feel between the two variants is negligible because European cars are rated at 478 bhp at same rpm, I can attest to this myself. There is a reason the USA F40 has it's own parts book, it's basically a different car, some to the differences are subtle, but they create a different experience, the gear ratios are a case in point: First gear - 1:10.707 (USA), 1:10.069 (Euro) Second gear - 1:6.628 (USA), 1:6.262 (Euro) Third gear - 1:4.745 (USA), 1:4.463 (Euro) Fourth gear - 1:3.724 (USA), 1:3.501 (Euro) Fifth gear - 1:2.965 (USA), 1:2.787 (Euro) Priceless I thought this was the F40 market analysis thread not the Forex analysis thread Good question. Paul's way off on this one, his excuse that California is the key sis incorrect, most sales of USA F40s are to people spread across the USA, I would know, for example there are several collectors who have built up collections of USA variant F40, F50, Enzo etc and therefore buy strictly USA variants, partly to keep things sweet with their standing with Ferrari North America, obviously Paul not being in the business has no idea about this. Also the claim that the rest of the US is buying up ROW versions "in droves" is off, USA F40s are still trading in the USA and whereas Eu cars are coming in but at a pace that's no different annually from that of the past 10 years. Conversely I know of @ 4 Eu/ROW F40s resident in California even thiugh they are registered elsewhere, so the notion that Eu/ROW cars can't come here is plain wrong again. Lastly the excuse that all F40 values have risen in recent years as the reason the USA F40 values are strong doesn't explain why they routinely still bring more than Eu cars, that question is begged and has not been answered. As someone who actually specializes in the market for F40s, as opposed to being a theorist who happens to be interested in them, my actual experience is that USA buyers looking for a less expensive F40 go for the Eu F40, thus underscoring the fact again that USA F40s do bring a bit more, this as indisputably supported by auction results. Redundant, USA F40 were made specifically for the USA, so who cares if they are less popular in Europe? As the Italians would say, Esattamente. I know a little bit about the subject of this thread, the F40 market, because I've sold @ 70 including @ 25 Eu F40s, that's my F40 market experience, Paul, what's your actual F40 market experience, just curious, how many F40s have you sold? The rarity of the USA F40 isn't "perceived" as you say, its fact, it's 5 times as rare as an Eu/ROW F40. It wasn't the "internet" that suddenly opened the eyes of US buyers to the possibility of a cheaper alternative to the USA F40 it was the expiration DOT mandates, simple as that. USA collectors will always use knowledgeable specialists to source extraordinarily good cars, some on the other hand don't desire expert assistance and are happy to go through the acquisition process alone, there's something for everyone and always will be, which is true of every specialized market you can think of where the quality of what you buy can make a big difference in it's value, the notion that there's a movement to cut out knowlegeable expert assistance is another false one. No broker I know talks down the Eu/ROW versions, that includes myself, explaining the virtues of the 2 different examples doesn't mean one is talking one up or the other down, that said, basically we're in the business to give people what they want No 'floodgates' opened in the USA for Eu/ROW cars, that mischaracterization is a figment of your creative imagination, the numbers from @ 10 years ago to this day show it's been more of a slow trickle, which continues to this day. Nobody I know myself included has ever stated that they stated not that long ago that "they would never deal with ROW examples", we sold our first Eu/ROW F40 @ 15 years ago and haven't looked back since, if people come looking for one we'll find them a good one. And yes we sell them exactly because there is money to be made - we're in the F40 business, amongst others. The notion that eventually the main market for US spec F40s will simply be California is another false one, our registry for USA F40s shows them spread across mosts states in the USA, often coveted by people who have other USA spec Ferrari Supercars. As regards the smart money moving out of California big time, of course you know everything, but even as an International broker, in 2023 so far I've done more business in California than in the past 10 years, however we routinely do business in Europe, Asia, the Middle East etc so we're not too concerned with tracking where the smart money is moving to next, we'll simply follow it. As to your prediction that the gap in values will keep closing slowly but surely, since the rest of us do not have access to your crystal ball we'll just have to wait and see what actually happens, that said, I doubt owners of either F40 variant will be too fazed either way. Mark why don't you simply be fully transparent as we discussed privately and disclose that the chassis number is 84887 and the car is for sale for 2,400,000 Euros, this way people interested can assess it better. Today's office below - the enigmatic USA F40 in the foreground, this one was driven as you can see from the sooty rims, meanwhile notice it's Eu/ROW relative in the background, 2 very different cars in person! Both in California. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hmm someone seems very defensive as usual in regards to punting US spec F40s! Facts are facts, I have presented my supporting information, spin is spin. The readers of this thread can simply decide which seems more plausible based on such. This is not a competition as to who knows best, its just an analysis, the market will show who is correct, maybe not today, maybe not next week, cars are often rare for a reason, take away the reason for that rarity and they flounder in time.
Often it is not what people actually say that really matters, it is what they don't say. Take a gander at who liked post 154.
@joe sackey I didn't authorize you to give the S/N. The interested person can ask me by private message but I don't want the S/N to be disclosed on the public forum. Please delete it immediately, thank you. And yes, 2.4 M€ are approx. 2.63M$. I'm asking in my thread if it's correct or if it's too high. I don't understand your "this way people interested can assess it better."
@joe sackey When you say that I am not transparent, it offends me because it seems to me that I was VERY transparent with you during our exchanges by private message. I answered ALL your questions, yes or no?
@joe sackey You gave your opinion, I'll give you mine. The original F40 was created and developed in Europe according to European criterias. It then had to be adapted to meet American DOT in order to be sold in this market. The US Spec F40 is not a "special model" but it is just an adaptation to American rules (i.e. 964 RS vs 964 RS America = same thing). If there are less US Spec F40 than EUR Spec F40, it is not a desire to limit the production but that there were simply fewer buyers in the USA than in the rest of the world at the time. Concerning certain particular elements, I think that American buyers prefer comfort to the radicalism of a car that is truly typed for racing. In Europe, it is the opposite. Nevertheless, european manufacturers have developed "touring versions" from their radical versions. I could read that the US Spec F40 had air conditioning and "pullman" seats, among other things.... Would you put electric lounge seats, retractable belts and air conditioning in a Formula 1? It's not the spirit we have here in Europe and weight is enemy number 1. We prefer rigid bucket seats, harness and rollbar. Luckily Ferrari had the idea of adding 22 hp to compensate for this reckless increase in weight... You also say the US Spec F40s have aluminum tanks. Again, Ferrari was forced to change their system because of DOT rules. Aluminum tanks are heavier and hold less fuel. It's true that they shouldn't be changed every 10 years, but when you buy a car worth more than $2.5 million today, will the investment of a few thousand dollars every 10 years be change your life? Finally, you say that the US Spec F40 is less dangerous in the event of an accident... I think you are joking. Everyone buys what they want according to their criteria: pure radical car or more comfortable car, that's all.
Mr "Mark" (or whatever your name really is): What is so secret about a chassis number? A number that is easy to see in various places from the outside of the car. Why so paranoid? With the two stickers on the top right of "your" F40 it is rather easy to identify it anyway (post 167). People on fchat are no idiots and have more knowledge than you can ever imagine. Don't go into the kitchen, if you cannot stand the heat. Marcel Massini
I don't wish to publish the S/N, that's all. Everybody can ask, of course, but I don't want to see it here. I know that people on fchat are no idiots but what a published S/N can bring more? Nothing. In my opinion, the most important is the condition of the car, its maintenance, its certification and its history. I therefore ask Mr @joe sackey to remove the S/N. Thanks in advance.
