Ferrari F80 value thread

You can have 5 Valhallas for the price of one F80. The Valhalla is the SF90's competitor.

 

Exactly.

That's exactly how much I value the F80.

 

Great post, and very thoughtful examples, sir.

I agree with everything you say about the driving experience. So much so that I emphasized in my post that the driving experience is "part" of charisma, a large part, but it is not all of it.

As I said: a kid can have a poster of an F50 on the wall of his room, and consider it charismatic, even without driving it, because he can appreciate the design, see the construction in person or details in a review, hear the machine passing by on his street with a thunderous sound, know how rare it is, and realize that everyone appreciates that car. Just as the owner of an F50 will find it charismatic for all of this and for the visceral driving experience, for the very special F130B, and so on. The kid and the owner of the F50 will admire the car, each from their own point of view and with their own experiences.

Another example: How many here at FChat consider the 641 or 412 T2 charismatic? Many. How many have driven one of them?

I liked your examples of the 911 GT3 (being superior to the 911 GTS) and the 930 Turbo being a dual personality machine (wild and GT in the same car).

Note that, although there are more differences between the GT3 and the GTS, the fact that the GT3 is N/A is very predominant. Note that the GTS, especially now in its .2 "T-Hybrid" incarnation, is faster in every metric than the .2 GT3, but 8 or 9 out of 10 people find the GT3 much more desirable and charismatic. That's where the N/A comes in, the nobility, linearity and sound of the N/A.

Regarding the 930 Turbo, note that the fact that it is "wild" contributes to its charisma, more than if it were just "fast", "capable" and "GT".

 

SF90XX are routinely available in Europe for about a million less than the price quoted... Put down the knife and fork; your hat is safe.

 

True….but one day it will happen. Until then your hat is safe!

 

Maybe the difference we’re splitting is that while a design can feel charismatic, to know if the car itself is truly charismatic you have to drive it?

 

By the way, 412 T2 - very beautiful, almost perfect. And it was the last ever V12 F1 car so it is as historic as it gets for a Ferrari that didn’t win the championship. But I do prefer the double-championship winning 126 C2 with its boxier but taut appearance. Very charismatic

What a contentious topic though - according to Autosport, a Ferrari isn’t even the best looking. The Lotus 72 earns that accolade. I must admit, it is iconic and very beautiful. That 126 is special too though.

 

There are more elements than just design and handling, such as construction, the era the car belongs to (e.g. the F40 was the last of the Enzo era, the F50 had its engine derived from an F1), and other peculiarities.

But you summed it up very cleverly: the driving experience confirms and intensifies all the charisma of a car.

The 126 C2 is certainly one of the greatest. Its boxy and compact design is beautiful, and the two championships give it historical appeal.

Also iconic is the 641, whose engine was the development point for the F50 engine, something that I consider very special in history.

The Lotus 72 is truly beautiful and iconic, and the same can be said of the MP4/4 and MP4/5B.

 

Don't forget Dan Gurney's 1966 Eagle MK1.

Marcel Massini

 

I really wanted to see and hear the 126 C2 live but I never had that opportunity. However, back in 1984 I saw and heard very closely the 126 C4s from Alboreto and Arnoux. Six years later in 1990 in the same place and also from the pits, I saw and heard the first 641 in which an effective traction control system was used. What a day that October 21, 1990 when Mansell was first and Lauda became 3-time Formula 1 World Drivers champion.
I remember the sound of the 126 C4, although more vaguely, but I still remember very well the scream of the 641. The sound of today's V6 F1s when compared to the V6 126 Cs is simply muffled and uninteresting. So it's no surprise that the F80 in terms of sound is what it is.

 

« What a day that October 21, 1990 when Mansell was first and Lauda became 3-time Formula 1 World Drivers champion. «
In a parallel universe maybe ?

 

Sorry I just realized that what I wrote was mixed-up therefore not correct . Lauda won on a Sunday of October of 1984 and not in 1990, as I mentioned, his third F1 World Drivers championship by half a point. I also witnessed alive how it happened and the big rivalry that existed with Alain Prost. Obviously in October 1990 the world champion was Senna and as I said before I saw Mansell win at Estoril that year with the 641.

 

I agree that it would be worth it. While I know the Ferrarista community generally frowns upon conversions like yours, it's increasingly likely to be my path to Ferrari ownership.

 

The only way for that to be an issue is if you give a **** in the first place. I actually drive my car. The people that will talk like you are below them for having a conversion really aren't people you want to hang around with in the first place. And a lot of them have literally no clue what a conversion entails or how it's reversible in most cases. I've literally had people on here message me about how I bastardized my car haha.

That being said, it's OK to like different things. Different perspectives are awesome as long as the person giving them isn't all high and mighty about it. I may not be a fan of the F80, but I'm genuinely happy for all of the owners here who are getting one.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread too far. If you have any questions about conversions, feel free to reach out.

 

The table below is an update to another previously posted here and shows the appreciation of the various models in the Ferrari hypercars group with updated data in relation to the end of 2024. The F80, being a 2024 model, for obvious reasons only appears on this table with its expected average price new.
In relation to the previous table, this already includes the LaFerrari Aperta, which is the rarest of the group with only 241 units built and also the one that had the highest average annual appreciation, 337,500.00 USD, which is something absolutely extraordinary. Regarding the LaFerrari no Aperta with 639 units built and therefore less rare than the 288GTO, F50 and Enzo, curiously it had a higher appreciation than these older models.
Only the future will tell what will happen to the value of the F80, whose starting price is extremely high. Therefore, if it will have a similar appreciation to the LaFerrari non Aperta, within 11 years it will be worth around USD 9 million. If this eventually will happen, I am also very curious to know what will be then in 2035 the value of all the other Ferraris that are rarer than the F80?


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While the numerical analysis is interesting to discuss, I think you’d need a chart that shows purchase prices adjusted for inflation along with pre-pandemic values as both things dramatically skew the numbers in favor of “investment return”.

 

Thanks for providing those numbers. In terms of average price, I am not sure if those are global or a specific region. From my own tracking in the US, the LaFerrari and its Aperta have been selling at roughly 15-20% higher prices. I know of at least 3 closed deals on LaF recently that are relatively standard spec. LaF aperta in the high 5's. Also, I believe the F80 will be a 2026 model.

From my own data, I have a volume sensitivity curve based on F40, F50, Enzo, and LaF sales that most of the long-term price is driven by scarcity, followed by a connection to racing. It's not a straight line but an asymptotic curve with a 399 unit volume having 33% more price value than a 799 unit volume of the F big 5. Also, this doesn't consider the significant change of high net worth individuals worldwide over the last 5 years.

Also, I treat "33% more value" as more of a qualitative statement than a quantitative value in price calculations. This could easily have garbage in and garbage out, providing that "33%." This "33%" could easily be a correlating number instead of a causative one. I am providing it as more of a discussion item than a fact.

 

The prices presented in the table for the various models are very likely to be low by default, however they attempt to show average values across all markets. One of the sources of information I used is Classic.com average Sales (Moving Average) which analyzes sales and bids across various markets.
Although I like to follow the market for classic Ferraris, I don't pretend being an expert in this area, but I support your idea that long-term price is mainly driven by scarcity. Within this logic, the models with fewer units built are those that have the greatest potential for appreciation in the long term.
When we look at the long-term appreciation of the various models after their initial selling price has been corrected with the rate of cumulative inflation until 2024 (new table below), the 288GTO stands out in relation to all others with an appreciation of almost 14 times followed by the F50 which appreciated around 3 times in 29 years. Within the classics of this group, the F40 was the one that appreciated the least, just doubling in 37 years the initial price corrected with the rate of cumulative inflation to 2024, which is something that was almost achieved by the Laferrari in 11 years and the LaFerrari Aperta in just 8 years .

Regarding the F80, which has a very high selling price and also whose number of units to be built is the largest in this group after the F40, it seems to me that it will be very difficult to be able to follow the average appreciation trajectory of the LaFerrari. However, as you rightly mentioned, the greater or lesser scarcity versus the number of potential buyers that's what will determine through the years the future average appreciation of the F80.




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I respect your work but what this all about? Ferrari want to much money for F80? or maybe resales price of F80 will be lower than F50? I don't like F80 at all but people whom see this car or order one like body design and claim that this V6 turbo is leMans winner engine. I doubt that there will be depretiation nightmer, witch I wish to happen because I hate turbo engines

 

The table on post #294 shows the selling prices of all models when they were launched corrected with the rate of cumulative inflation to 2024. Therefore the inflation corrected price of a LaFerrari would be 1.923.000,00 USD in 2024 compared to the average price of the F80 which is 3.700.000,00 USD. IMO the fact that Ferrari is requesting 1.777.000,00 USD more for a F80 is too much since a LaFerrari is rarer, has a great v12 NA with a much superior sound and in terms of design is in another level.

 

There might be some other things to think about here. For example, simply using inflation to elevate car costs over 40 years doesn’t really work. For example, nobody would sell today a car as advanced and powerful as the GTO was back in 1985 for $253k. All car prices have advanced far beyond inflation, as have salaries, houses etc. If this is about ‘investment’ maybe there are other metrics to use?

Also, plotting a simple average over time will always favour the newer cars. All of them have tended to move as a class, once the first ownership is out of the way. In other words, as a generality (which is applicable looking over a long period), when Ferrari hyper cars go up, they all go up to some degree. Therefore, the older cars look like they have performed worse simply because you are dividing their growth over a longer period of time. In fact, if you had bought a GTO in 1985, you would have needed today’s equivalent of $253k, whereas a LaF Aperta you would have needed $2.6m. The GTO would have returned you more than 10x today’s cost whereas the LaF Aperta would not even have doubled the cash you put in. It’s a hypothetical and impossible situation of course, plus this way around favours the GTO because it has had longer to appreciate over.

Maybe the best way is to plot graphs based on first year, two years, five years, 10 years etc for each model. Growth should be recorded as a percentage over the initial cost and compare the shape of the graphs.

As gzachary mentioned earlier, rarity is only one side of the equation. Demand is the other. Considering the F40 was produced in much greater numbers than the GTO, it is doing comparatively well. The reason must be to do with demand. I have a friend now in his 70’s. I have known him since his 50’s and he was into cars heavily. He owned successive 911s and a 348 etc. But his pride and joy was his vintage cars. He hillclimbed them and they were pretty valuable things. 20 years later and I think their values have been soft for a while now. When my friend grew up, I guess he mixed in circles where these vintage cars were seen as beautiful pieces of engineering and automotive history, which they of course were. When boyhood car lovers of this type of machinery grew up, guess what they were going to do? But then time moves on, people forget how to drive them (they are very different to cars from even the 50’s and 60’s), they don’t know how to keep them on the road - original suppliers are long gone - and they don’t really relate to them. So the market eventually peaks, at least in the main. Another example is the Morris Bullnose, from around the 20’s. Those are worth less now than the Mk 1 Ford Escort from the 70’s, which were basically valueless 20 years ago but are now worth astonishing amounts - both bread and butter, everyday cars that were very popular in their time, the later car being produced in far greater numbers but somehow worth more!

That will happen to every generation of car. I think it’s different in the US but in the UK you have to take a driving test in a manual vehicle to be allowed to drive a manual vehicle. You can take a test in an automatic car but you are then not allowed to drive a manual car. In 10 years, when most driving instructors won’t easily be able to get a car with a manual gearbox, the demand in driving tests will probably change. Why will anyone need to take a test to drive a manual car? Most tests will be for automatic cars or even EVs. Which means that to drive a manual car, if our grandkids want to own one, they will have to go back and take a pretty difficult test. Eventually, the market for manual cars will probably be affected by this. Even in countries that don’t have a test such as ours, the dearth of manual cars being around will lead to people forgetting how to drive them and showing less interest in them from a petrolhead point-of-view. How long will this take? It’s hard to know, of course. But the key point is that there are barriers to owning older cars and when the people with the money don’t relate to them anymore, they will pass their peak. A 250 GTO is deservedly one of the world’s most valuable cars. But as driving tools, they come with a lot of baggage. I once had a dinner along with someone who owns one and asked him if he drives it. “Yes” he said, “but I have to have a Discovery full of bits and a mechanic who knows how to fix everything follow me wherever I go.” Eventually, the people who want to put the effort in to doing that, for a car they probably won’t be able to drive without a lot of training, will become very few. The GTO, because of it’s history, rarity and beauty will remain valuable as a collector’s item I guess. But I think there are many cars that will reach a peak and plateau or come down at a certain point in time. When do cars cease being cars and turn into art?

 

Good points above and nice work by Mario.

I agree the chart is both interesting, but also not going to give an accurate picture, and that is because of two related factors.

Firstly, we are looking at the past, Ferrari is looking at the future. Now, you can say that you prefer what they did in the past to what they are doing now, and seem to be doing into the future. But the reality is that they cannot set prices based on a model from 10 years ago. They have to set prices based on what will be relevant to this market, which is relatively small and opaque, over the next however many years it takes to deliver these cars (3-5?). If there is an aperta model, one would assume it would have some relation to the price of the coupe, so they have to also consider that factor and add in that time as well. No one knows the future.

Secondly, I think your chart shows something I’ve observed with some special cars, they will often appreciate quickly, and then plateau, until some catalyst. So if we go out 10 years, it’s possible the LaF wont change in a meaningful way, which would hurt its annual performance more than the older models.

Finally, I think using inflation adjusted numbers is helpful, worth looking at, but that includes true necessities, and these cars are hardly such. I think it might be better to find some kind of artwork inflation index and apply that. And even there, it would be fraught, because there are so many different kinds of art, and cars seen as artwork by a large group of buyers is something that is fairly new. Indeed, you will see many buyers of cars today are not even individuals, they are money funds. Which brings me back to my first point, if you are pricing the car, and you realize its not just individuals who are buying, but money funds with generally greater and pooled resources, well, you have a duty to price it as high as you can.

Personally, I think its too bad so much discussion ends up on values and pricing and not the car itself, but thats the world in which we live and we each have to navigate as best we can. If theres a money fund out there who wants to buy us an F80, I volunteer to drive it for a bit and give you a write up

 

Jerry, I look forward reading your write up.

 

I agree with much of what you said and I’m aware that the current selling price of any Ferrari in this group is dependent on many factors such as the degree of scarcity and the demand situation. My comparison does not include any other brand and focuses exclusively on the seven models, all of them from the same Ferrari Supercar/Hypercar family. When each of these models was launched it was the showcase for the ultimate technology and performance from the marque as it is now the F80.

I used the parameter of the rate of inflation cumulative to 2024 applied to the price of each of the models when they were launched, just with the intention of trying to understand how appreciation varied in relation to inflation. As expected, all models without exception appreciated much more than inflation, however there are some that appreciated much more than others. The 288 GTO is a very curious example when compared to the F40 as the age difference between the two is only 3 years but the selling price of the F40 in 1987 when compared to that of the 288GTO in 1984, was almost five times higher. There is certainly an explanation for such a difference but I don't know what it is. Another comparison that particularly interested me is between the Enzo and the LaFerrari whose age difference is 11 years, the same age difference between the LaFerrari and the F80. After applying the cumulative inflation rate for 2024 to the prices of each of these two models when they were released, it turns out that the price of a new LaFerrari was about 40 percent higher than the Enzo. This difference is perfectly justified by the great technological leap that occurred between the Enzo and the LaFerrari and by the fact that the latter was a true game changer.

Using this same reasoning and comparative criteria between the LaFerrari and the F80 and after applying the rate of inflation cumulative to 2024 to the price of a new LaFerrari in 2013, I concluded that the selling price of the F80 is almost double that of the LaFerrari . As the technological differences between the F80 and the Laferrari are less pronounced than the ones between the Enzo and the LaFerrari, the question that arises is whether the price of the F80 is not excessive in relation to what the prices of the earlier models of this family were. IMO the price of the F80 seems to be excessive for the reasons I presented, however this is just my opinion which counts for little as the only ones who can truly assess whether the price seems excessively high or not are the future owners as is your case.