Ferrari F80

What did you read in my post to come up with these incongruous questions? I clearly said I’m not in the market for such an expensive car, and the Valkyrie is around the price of the F80. Technically, the Valkyrie seems very interesting but also very compromised as a road car.

I mentioned that Lamborghini isn’t better than Ferrari because I’ve owned multiple cars from both brands and put lots of miles on them, both on roads and tracks. I still have one of each. I also lived in three of the top 10 U.S. metro areas during that time and talked to many other owners, so my opinion is not out of nowhere. I only drove an Aston rental for a week years ago, and it didn’t seem like a great "driver’s car."

 

That's networking LOL...And you got the point I was going for. It's not always about business...it's very nice to meet other like-minded people who enjoy a shared passion and get away from people trying to get something out of you.

 

I repeat, why do you want Ferrari to build a new V12 that is expensive since you continue to buy the V6 that it recycles in the end... You have to remain logical, their goal is to make as much money as possible, not to please yourself by building an engine !

 

When the leadership has zero interest in cars this is usually what happens.
Ferrari has reached the Apple status. For every product that they make people will form lines regardless of its substance.
Why try when customers buy everything that you make as long as it has a badge and a logo?

 

All "bases" are self-fulfilling prophecies. I am glad I do not live by telling myself what cannot be done.
I am also glad that I share George330's awesome vision of a 1200kg Ferrari with a small V12, max 600hp and manual gearbox as the perfect car.

 

I apologise, didn’t mean to sound like I’m chewing you up. Ferrari certainly have the technical capability and money to do it, they just won’t because there is not the business case. That’s what makes it impossible - they’re a business. It also gives a place and value for GMA, if someone wanted a 1,200kg V12, I’d look to them.

 

You don't have to be doing 250 kph. The acceleration, even at double digit speeds, and the precision and immediacy of responses are plenty emotional.

 

Wouldn't the same go for Teslas then?

 

I admire the Valkyrie but the reality is that on many roads it won't work. It is not about grocery shopping, but about being usable in the real world.

That is totally unfair towards the actual cars that the company builds, which are the best in their segments.

Not really, because as impressive as Teslas might be in a straight line, that is all they can do. Their brakes are a joke and there is no finesse in their turning ability.

 

Aero cars are meant to be driven at speed to be felt impressive for what it is. So at street speed, the sensation of ‘Aero’ is meaningless.
You can not be impressed by how Lambo STO corners at speed on street.

On the other hand, the traits of the car such as torque, steering and brake feedback, and the balance of the car behavior, etc can be felt. What is also true is that interior, exterior and ‘Engine feeling and sound’ plays big part too…

These things we all know for sure.. So how will F80 impress us by which trait of the car on the street I have no idea.

One thing is sure if it had V12, that engine alone can give a very satisfying feeling of luxury in itself.

In short, it has to give a lot of things at once to make the street drive special enough to reward the price of ownership.

They should have gone for V12 or if they want to do V6 then price should have been lower than SP3…

This is my thinking. Yes I am buying one but I somehow feel insulted by the price tag and production numbers…or should I buy one?

 

Being allowed to buy a halo car would be quite an honor.

I can't help but wonder though if this will be the first halo car to depreciate below msrp between the high number being made and the high price tag. Granted cars shouldn't be bought solely for investments, but it does make a statement on how sought after it will be for collectibility.

 

All great points except the bit about no quibbling over 599 with the "GTO" name. There's no quibbling because no one cares anymore not because it was ever accepted.

 

Given that the number is still almost a half of f40 units, in a long run, it shouldn't depreciate.
Also the number of people who can buy it constantly rises( for the time being).
Doubt it will triple msrp as Laferrari did.
That being said, the prices are getting ridiculous.

 

Could you please give context why a small V12 would not be "the business case"?

I think that this powertrain, once developed, would be a monumental sales success. A unanimous engine.

Absolutely everyone would want to have a macchina with this engine. And it would be different from anything else offered by other brands.

Sales would quickly cover the development costs, and it would be an engine for a long, long time.

Not to mention that integrating a naturally aspirated engine with hybridization reduces complexity compared to an engine in which turbos have to be integrated with the hybrid. Much less warranty coverage expenses, therefore more profitability.

 

My point exactly. You don't need to be doing 150 mph to feel those things.

Disagree on this one. Price does not correlate to cylinder count. The SP3 is just a slower LaFerrari Aperta, it had no development costs really. The F80 is a technological marvel that cost multiple times to develop what the SP3 did.

As great as a new N/A V12 would be, Ferrari has always been about transferring racing technology to the road. The F80's V6 engine is mightily impressive and correlates to their F1 and WEC programmes. BTW, GMA offers such an engine, so it would not be unique. The mighty Valkyrie has a much larger V12, which in all honesty is probably the best hypercar engine out there. There are a lot of questions about Cosworth's engines in terms of reliability though.

Not really. These extremely high revving N/A engines are as complex and failure prone as a tubrocharged engine. The forces exerted on the flywheel at 11-12k RPM are extreme.

 

Money is freedom... If you feel "obliged" to do so, it means that you lose it...
There's a lot else to buy !

 

You just have to look at the world into which such an engine would be born. The threat of no ICE in Europe in 10 years, strong regulatory progression towards that now, uncertainty about how it all happens and what technologies will be possible and acceptable, the need to meet very stringent emissions during its life - for both gases and sound etc.

To sign off potentially a billion dollar investment to build an engine that the world is trying its best to get rid of, is very very difficult. If it had to have turbos to even have a chance of meeting emissions, low sound from the exhaust, less power and imperfect throttle mapping to squeak by the test cycle, would it then be the engine that everyone wants. If you’ve been here for any length of time you already know the reception it would receive. Is that how they would want people to respond to their brand-new, expensively developed power unit? The car it is fitted to would also be too heavy. Think 296 plus at least 200kg to accommodate a bigger engine and more metal around it. Sure, you get some back with no hybrid but the V12 probably has had to adopt that tech anyway to avoid CO2 fines.

You can say what about Valkyrie, or GMA? But their circumstances are very different. And the investment they require to build their cars is different. Ferrari is not a micro manufacturer where different rules can apply. True, neither is Aston but Valkyrie is minute volume and uses an outsourced engine - something Ferrari would never do. It’s not as simple as saying get the Ferrari engineers and production team to build a Cosworth competitor. They can’t. Neither can Cosworth build a Ferrari V12 to fit in all the applications the current engine has.

What about doing a US only product? Cutting your market in less than half, predicting who will win the US election and what they will do with emissions regulations - for the next 15 years - is not a sound way to make a business case! Add to that customer changing tastes and new technologies. I love Ferrari V12s and own a number of them. But I’m also a businessman and if I were signing such an investment off I would have to let my head rule my heart and remind myself you are only ever a very few mistakes away from catastrophe in the car business. I have the scars.

Last night I had a business dinner with an auto maker. One of the senior people made a comment that showed me just how affected we can be by our own viewpoint. He said to me that after working with EVs he realised they had so much more soul than an ICE car. Of course you disagree. But that’s irrelevant. It’s what he thinks. And there are many more like him, both now and in the future. His rationale? ICE cars rattle and smoke and aren’t too reliable. EVs have smooth performance, can look however the designer wants because they are easier to package and reflect how Gen Z etc have grown up - with enabling technology. As I said, the fact you don’t agree is not relevant. At the F80 customer reveal, the conundrum was laid bare. They know very well what traditional customers want. But on building their (very expensive) new e-factory, they made this statement (paraphrasing); with this factory we can build anything - petrol, hybrid, EV or anything else. It’s up to you. What you demand, we will build. And why say that? Because they know that tastes are changing. It is very difficult to predict what technologies tomorrow’s Ferrari buyers will prefer. F80 is actually (in my view) a nod to safety in the face of changing tastes. You might think the move away from V12 is a risk. But instead, they are on ground they know well - making the fastest, race-inspired car they know how. Aero has been important to Ferrari road cars since they moved from Pininfarina and built their wind tunnel and critically important to Ferrari race cars for 50 years. It is an avenue little explored in their hyper line. That time has now come. It’s also why the F80, in my estimation, will become a legend. Massive aero with Ferrari hyper car lines.

And the V6 engine plays an important part in making that possible.

 

I just wonder why Ferrari didn't bother with a V10 back then while toyota/yamaha built a V10 that is as small as a V6 but has 9000rpm redline and has a torque figure similar to a flat plane V8. Or how that GM V8 is capable of tremendous horsepower figures without a hybrid powertrain. Business point of view aside. Ferrari got lazy on this one imho. They are profiting now from their other models in the lineup but didn't go all out with the halo powertrain(F80). The brand lost their legendary identity under elkann as the chairman and manzoni as the chief designer.

PS: Stop the crap about this V6 le mans winning engine bullsh-it. That argument is old already. If they know what traditional customers/fans want, why did they go with what those "youtube influencers" or what e-heads(tesla electric car fanbois and "environmentalist car enthusiasts") want. Also EU might not even be the largest market for ferrari customers these days so they should have at least an option not to neuter the engine/exhaust sound.

 

Ferrari is just looking to spend as little as possible, and sell as much as possible, so we recycle the V6 with marketing packaging; Le Mans... blablablah blah
And as the customers write the check, all is well in the best of all worlds...
And enthusiasts like us, today to be honest, we annoy them, they would like us to shut up...

 

I have a friend who seems to have a fairly reputable offer to buy a slot for $500k over.

 

Why is the V6 turbo Le Mans winning thing ‘crap’? The F40 was the first car that made the hyper car line a ‘thing’. Before that it was just the 288 GTO, a very fast take on a 308/328. The follow-up car suddenly indicated that Ferrari wanted to turn this into a ‘dynasty’ of products. The F40 was also far further from the appearance of the standard cars than was the GTO. It looked like it was designed and destined for the track with its wings and cowls - indeed it did find its way to Le Mans. The V8 turbo engine was totally anathema to what Ferrari had hitherto been though. Before that it was all n/a V8s and n/a V or flat 12s. It was never winged cars for the road and it was rarely a stripped-out interior like the F40 had. For its price, the build quality was literally a shock but justified on the basis of needing to be light weight and ‘race-bred’.

And so they used a laggy, high-power turbo V8. And Enzo famously signed it off. Why? Because it was fast. And if you had to put up with it not being a V12, or the engine in the middle, or a comically non-linear power delivery, so what? Learn to drive. This car had numbers too. The first to top 200mph.

In some ways, no Icona could do the F40 justice. Instead the F80 does. It invites obvious criticism for its layout, the purists hate it, but Ferrari would have signed it off. Because it will be the best road car around a track. And by road car, just like the F40, I mean a car you can reasonably use on the road. AMG One and Valkyrie don’t really meet that criteria (just try getting in a Valkyrie if you have a little age and even a slight bit of beef!). The W1? When is that going to come then? They haven’t even developed it yet. And will it be faster or better? Who knows. Until then, the over-one-tonne downforce and 1,200 hp F80 has pushed the limits of tech and speed to fantastic levels. Would I prefer more sound? Probably, but I guess so would those Ferrari engineers who developed it. That isn’t the world we live in now. Would I want to own an F40 any less because it doesn’t have the F50’s soundtrack?

Love it or hate it, and I don’t blame you if you hate it, it is the F40 reborn. I felt that from the first time I saw the real mule. It will be a scary proposition, just like the F40. There is also the argument that it’s too fast to be enjoyable on the road. That could be true, but I don’t think it will. Someone said the same for the SF90 earlier. We have two of those and they are brilliant road-driving cars. I have driven about 6,000 road-trip miles in them and they are outstanding cars and on a quiet twisty road, brilliant fun, absolutely brilliant. The F80 will be the same….if anyone dares.

 

I wonder if both viewpoints can be correct or true at the same time

* they want to maximize profits
* the pressure to go ev/ reduce emissions etc/

In the US it seems a bit silly to us, but having spoken with several friends who are involved with the EU space, they say that we over here have no idea the pressure to stop building ICE.

I say you might as well hand your market over to others {I am attempting to not get into P/R territory}.

If it were my choice, Id have said to build the wished for smaller V12, and Id have based it on the 296/499 V6 engine in some way to create a legitimate connection. Add in the hybrid and there you go. But, again, Im just sitting here, being an “armchair quarterback” as we say.

Tastes do change, and so far the people at Ferrari have had a near spotless track record at being ahead of where things are going. So, for most of us, time will provide us with the verdict on the F80.

 

The only criticism I have regarding the idea that the F80 is the new F40- the F40 captured the imagination of a generation with its shocking looks and performance. And it was Enzo’s last car. And today we have the benefit of decades to look back and understand it.

It was the fastest car in the world with its 201MPH top speed. The F80 is the fastest ever accelerating Ferrari, but does it have the highest top speed of any road car or have some other record? I think Ferrari long ago stopped trying for those types of records; but whereas the F40 really moved the needle, we have yet to see if the F80 achieves the same kind of recognition. It might via its driving experience. What if it’s an aero car but via its trick suspension it can give you fun at road speeds, but also the aero performance when you hit the track? I think we will need more time to see how the F80 is regarded. But at the moment I would be cautious about proclaiming it as a new F40.

 

I don't doubt it. I probably should have said over the next 5 years in my post. I have no doubts they will initially trade hands over msrp.