Ferrari Gran Turismo Thread

YESSS !!!

 

I show 15 November 2024 right now.
Not even 2025.
But maybe I am wrong.

Marcel Massini

 

I'm more of a Forza Motorsport fan (I'll let myself out...)

 

I didn't say a single word about 0357 GT and/or the pix.

Marcel Massini

 

0357 GT? Here we go.
Note also invoice date, and especially the word "Usata" (= used).

Marcel Massini

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Hardly any confirmed information on production of the first cars (0357GT and Vignale 0359GT) can be found. Next three cars 0361GT-0363GT-0365GT were started in October 1954.

 

Kare: From Build Sheets for 0359GT-

Engine Dyno test- 28/9/54
Gearbox built- 9/9/54, replaced 2/12/54
Rear Axle built- 8/4/54
all the acceptance tests have been carried out- 18/9/54
It does not show a final completion date, but chassis started on 23/8/54

 

Per factory build sheets there were two engine dyno tests for 0359 GT.
The first one 24 September 1954.
The second one 28 September 1954.

Marcel Massini

 

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Marcel: Agree on the two dyno tests. I did not mention the first test as it was not relevant to the final completion of the motor. As you well know, having to dyno the engines in the early years was not a easy process. Many of the motors had problems during the first test session, ranging from excessive smoke and oil leaks to major failures.

 

Thanks, are the type and internal numbers for gearbox and rear end listed on build sheets?

I presume they first produced around 10 tipo 112 engine castings which is why 0359GT has engine #319. I think the series was numbered with odd numbers starting from #301. Until 1957 or so they seem to have installed the rear axle into an empty frame before sending over to coachbuilder so it would stand on it's wheels, which explains early completion date.

Over the years I've found next to nothing on the development of 250GT, just have to presume the project was started early-to-mid-1954, with production starting towards the end of that year. It is also hard to explain why first two frames were bodied by PF and Vignale, both using their earlier Europa desing. This also explains why 0357GT was not shown anywhere; brand new car rolling out of assembly was already obsolete!

 

Kare: for 0359GT:

Gearbox Tipo 342 #1GT originally, replaced with Tipo 101/247 #29GT
Rear Axle Tipo 340 #2GT.

for 0363GT renumbered to 0381GT:

Gearbox Tipo 342 #9GT replaced with Tipo 104/103 #64GTP
Rear Axle Tipo 340 #10GT

for 0365GT:

Gearbox Tipo 101/247 #7GT
Rear Axle Tipo 340 #8GT

Hope this helps with your research.

 

Thank you!

What comes to Aardy's question, I think 0357GT was built as a special project. PF job numbers reflect that first production cars were ordered as a batch of three:
0361GT 18/10/54 PF/12552
0365GT 25/10/54 PF/12553
0363GT 25/10/54 PF/12554

And the production started right after with:
0367GT 30/10/54 PF/13936

I think the jump in PF job numbers comes from a separate order. PF/13941 (for 0357GT) would be created in 2nd half of November. I think the explanation could be that the car was built as a special project right after the last 250 Europa, but not included in that batch of production bodies, so they added it to their books now to get it into their system, books and invoiced. Pure speculation from my part, but would sort of make sense as Ferrari was about to sell it as an ordinary production car.

Existing copies of PF ledgers are a mess. Some people say these are the original books from Pinin Farina, but I highly doubt that. Somebody made hand-written copies in a terrible hurry, of then he was just sloppy, resulting in many mistakes. It all makes more sense if one thinks that 0357GT was initially missing from the records, then it was added and at least in the existing copies several cars are confused with eaxh other.

PF starting date 17/7/54 likely belongs to 0456AM like the remark "Salone Parigi", which is likely why many sources still claim 0357GT was shown in Paris (was really 0349EU). Color information "cassa grigio met. LC49, tetto LC2 MM/panno blu 3258, plastico blu 468/15" (silver with dark grey roof/blue cloth and vinyl) likely belongs to 0357GT, and is wrong for 0361GT which was white - or grigio latte - I believe.

I think the three first cars were hurried through production as two of them werre sent to Bruxelles for a world premiere in January, while the thirs car is noted to have been a demontrator. I also think the instrument cluster was redesigned at this time and 0367GT completed few weeks later likely was the first car with small instrument pod.

Very confusing.

 

It is also possible that 0357GT was built as PF/13935 but next three bodies still ended up completing the order of 25 bodies for 250 Europa series (PF/12530-PF/12554). As PF/13935 was eventually used twice the 250GT would be moved further on into that sequence. It is possible to play endless games with the fragements of production data we have... It would be interesting to know if it carries any numbers on its body, engine number photo would also be interesting. My assumption is the first two engines were stamped differently as those cars were really special and did not go through the normal production process.

 

Kare:

I will try to help with the Europa GT (Tipo 112) engines, but they are very confusing as the factory was developing the motors all the time.

Block: #250/10418- This is the same as the 250MM block.
Crankshaft: 166/12153- I think this is the same as the 250MM.
Piston: 250/14282- same as the 250MM.
Con Rods: 125/14102- same as the 250MM.
Valves: IN-400/16135, EX- 225/16676. These are the same as the 250MM.
Chaincase: They used a basic 212 unit but varied the generator mounting.
Camshafts: 410/16662- same as the 250MM

Cylinder Heads: This is where things get crazy. The 250MM used single port per cylinder heads (six port heads). Europa GT #359 used #212/16311 “old style” heads. I believe these to be three port heads. #0363 and #0365 also use this head.
However, by #0383, this car used “tipo nuovo condotti angoli”, which may signify a six port head with the center four ports grouped together in pairs. #0387 and #0389 revert to the “old style” cylinder heads. On #0393 we have “split ducts 90mm apart”. This sounds like the same design as used on #0383. #0403 and #0419 also use this same design.

This Tipo 112 engine is used up to least #0445 with the above cylinder heads.


Engine #0359 is noted “2nd della serie”

More for you to digest about these Europa GT’s.

 

Kare: I incorrectly described the "split ducts 90 mm apart" cylinder head. It has three sets of two "grouped' ports, not the center four ports "grouped" together in pairs. Too many years of breathing gasoline fumes.

 

Thank you again, interesting times as in a relatively short period of time Ferrari produced huge amount of engines in different configurations. It is fascinating to think that 250MM really had been very close of what they needed 2-3 years later. It is also interesting to note that last blocks in the 112 numbering sequnce seem to carry an additional "S2". I would guess they made some mods that quickly resulted in starting a new sequence of tipo 128 blocks.

 

An "S2" ??
Where, please?
Pic?

Marcel Massini