Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

You're the one who brought it up here in your pointless effort to continue to disparage me and anything I have to say. It was pretty clear you didn't have a clue what it meant.

Including my explanation to you here I'd be surprised if I've used the hashtag more than four times myself, always in relation to the F1 team which was its purpose. I'm hardly offended by it - it's just making you look ignorant which perhaps you don't mind.

PS: I don't care what you think of me.

>8^)
ER

 

Erik, at worst might be 'an obsessive fanboy', yet he at least attempts to be even-handed and fair. Over the last few pages, modena has not acknowledged once when shown to be wrong and has instead seized upon, or raised, new issues that he has. It's getting embarrassing now.

 

Wrong about what? Look at my post history in this thread. I have never, ever doubted that the P1's performance would be anything short of incredible. Those performance figures are extremely impressive and come as no surprise to me.

Now, Peter, elaborate on what new issue have I raised. The Evo vid mentioned that we have seen a video of a sub-7 minute lap when we clearly haven't. Same issue I've always had with the P1, correct?

So, what was I wrong about and what are the new issues I have raised?

 

Don't feed us that BS! You've been one of the primary Doubting Thomas/Negative Nancy's the whole way through this thread.

That shouldn't come as much of a surprise as that seems to be your MO in every thread here. Anyone who wants to review your 226 contributions to this discussion can do so beginning at the bottom of this page. All you do is criticize, criticize and criticize.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/search.php?searchid=7715710&pp=50&page=5

Why don't you review them and try to find some positive contributions - some posts that people could have really benefited from reading. I looked and it will be a tough assignment.

>8^)
ER

 

Your posts tell a different story: anything positive from Ferrari is seized on, anything positive from McLaren is largely ignored. But I shall reserve the possibility that I read them as such.

Regarding the video: Top Gear announced that 'McLaren has only revealed that the P1 ‘achieved its one remaining performance target' - a Nürburgring lap time starting with a ‘six' - that necessitated an average speed ‘in excess of 111mph' around the 13-mile track. ' I believe I read another figure elsewhere, at the time, and sums that suggested a time of 6.53 but I can't recall where that was.
McLaren P1?s Nürburgring lap time - BBC Top Gear

But you will say that we have not seen a non-edited full, driver's seat video.

This may be the case. But we cannot see that without them giving away their actual time, which they will not do unless they achieve the figure they wanted (which will have been generated in their F1-simulators which would simulate perfect conditions that are difficult to replicate). So they claim their sub-7 minute time, but will say no more. If you issue is with the wording of the video, take that up with the presenter: I am sure it will not be the first time that the press have gotten it wrong. Believe me, I find this probably more frustrating than you: I can't stand vagueness and would prefer that they posted the 6.54 or whatever they may have achieved, but this is not the McLaren way, apparently.

I know for a fact that they have the confidence that this will be forgotten once other facts are established. We have the extraordinary luxury of being able to debate these facts to oblivion in forums yet, for the general public, they are correct: this will mean nothing in a year, 2 years, etc. and the reception of the P1 already sets it apart as an extra-ordinary car (don't take this to be a demeaning statement of the LaFerrari).

But, with this said, the birth of the LaFerrari has been no prettier or less painful: I do not know the production timetable, which cannot be assumed to be concurrent with the P1 production timetable. Yet McLaren have almost produced a quarter of the P1 while we quibble over whether 10 or 20 LaFerrari are delivered. This raises questions (add to this the rumours that they failed an initial crash test, discussed on Pistonheads).

Furthermore, Ferrari unfortunately has a track record (excuse the pun) of exaggerating figures, whereas McLaren's figures of the 12C were proven to be conservative. Ferrari has a habit of providing 'souped-up' demo cars to journalists (see Chris Harris' exploits and the fact that, at least in the UK, ex-press cars are expected to have extra oomph).

McLaren came on to the market to provide an honest alternative to Ferrari. I believe that, on some levels this is the case. But they have proven to be rather naive and youthful in some aspects of their marketing and public statements: in my opinion the constant leaking of details as tasters has often caused more confusion and disappointment than a buzz. Regarding statements, I would let the cars speak for themselves. I also wish they would avoid some of the rhetoric that is bandied about, but that is typical of most car manufacturers.

But back, at last, on point: whether you believe this to be the case or not, your posts come across as though blinded to the flaws of Ferrari, yet like you have the eyes of a hawk when it comes to McLaren's short-comings. Your treatment of Erik in particular borders on childish in its constant goading.

It would be better to assess each company in an impartial light. Bear in mind that we are comparing a fairly new (road)car company to one of the oldest in the business, the car company that could sell (Rosso Corsa) sand to the Arabs, as it were. These arguments sound more like sectarian football squabbling than a measured assessment of two businesses that produce the stuff of dreams for many.

/ramble

 

918 with software and hardware updated:

0-60 2.38 seconds
1/4 mile 9.65 seconds

on par with superbike acceleration and LMP race cars from early 2000's

 

Jesus Christ............

Where did you get that from...

 

Source ?

 

Was at Porsche dealer here in town this week, got to talking about 918, dealer let me take a peek at a internal fax sent there pertaining to the updates to 918 and some options list, the chrome paint is ridiculously pricey. Total power now at 'around' 900hp. I think it'll be made public in near future, in any case when the 'final' cars roll out Mags will see for themselves.

 

This is the type of bull**** that just makes me wonder who is the idiot that recruited for McLarens PR team. An average speed that was exceeded is not a time. It is not proof of a time. It's just another meaningless, vague and ambiguous figure that McLaren came out with. A vague claim isn't a broken record and McLaren have not broken any records at the Nurburgring - the "performance benchmark" as Ron referred to it as. No one else has ever given us an average speed that was exceeded and left us to work out the rest on our own. The fan boy may applaud their efforts of being ambiguous and cheeky but, to be fair, if Ron Dennis came out and said he worships Satan and sacrifices small children Erik would applaud him for that too.

An average speed, a vague claim, an "insider" comment and a dedicated mouthpiece don't amount to a lap time and don't serve as any proof of a lap time. I love the P1, I posted about how much I like it a few pages back. McLaren's attitude and PR team, however, have been absolutely pathetic so far. Erik works around the clock defending their ridiculous decisions, making poor excuses and trying to convince everyone on a Ferrari forum that McLaren are superior in every way.

Off the top of my head:

- He couldn't post the word "LaFerrari" without it being followed by "(lol)" for months
- Criticises the criteria required to buy a LF
- It's the ugliest of the 3 supercars (IHO)
- Claims that Ferrari were struggling to sell all LF's with nothing to back the claim up
- Whines over and over again that the mirror stalks are too long
- Constantly goes on and on about the weight of the car
- Harps on about a failed crash test
- Questions why deliveries hadn't started earlier than they did
- Questions the LF's capabilities because he saw a video of it spinning on track
- Criticises Ferrari for not permitting the press to test the LF
- Criticises Ferrari for not bringing the LF to Geneva this year
- Claims that Ferrari are struggling with development and are way behind schedule
- Criticises Ferrari for pushing back delivery dates

And I'm the hater? Seriously?

Meanwhile, everything is perfect at Woking, everything is going according to McLaren's plan, there has been no surprises, they didn't want to sell 500 cars anyway, we should all applaud McLaren for not releasing a lap time, we should also applaud them for achieving a 6:30-something time that no one witnessed.

Give me a ****ing break

 

all we can do is presume, and I presume the vid EVO referred to is the 'of course we did' vid.

 

"...you've watched the infamous sub-7 minute 'Ring lap"

Very poor choice of words if that's the case.

 

You seem to know much about this car so what is the "unofficial" reason why 918 hasn't been released? The car was to be scheduled for sale last September and I have heard they have many technical things to sort out from brake operation to e motor integration. Are those still some of the issues? I had interest in 918 put the delay was a turn off.

 

from my conversations with them, it's mostly software integration that's delaying delivery. They are apparently trying to get every last ounce out of the battery pack. And the emotors have been 'retuned' to spin higher to provide longer assist to the ICE throughout the rev range. The braking has become a non-issue. They are satisfied. When the first customer car is tested by an independent mag, we'll see for sure what the end result is. And the last 'official' claim for Weissach car of 0-60 in 2.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in under 10 seconds, have been conservative. That's ridiculous, as is if 2.5 seconds isn't fast enough. to break the 2.5 second threshold is nuts. The thinking is to surprise owners with more than expected performance.

 

Once they solve they're integration issues (an they will for sure) the only deficit 918 has is weight. In theory I believe they can achieve a 2.5 sec 0-60 with their AWD power train. They also have >900 ft/lbs of torque to keep up their run too a 1/4 mile so a sub 10 sec quarter is remotely possible. I think weight hurts 918 from speeds greater than 150 to Vmax which many will argue is a bit irrelevant on most circuits. I can't wait to see the final product. By then it should have 918 HP.

 

weight is a factor, but the massive torque down low, ~700 ft-lb @3000rpm, and awd easily launches the car. remember, the last 911 turbo recorded 0-60 in 2.6 seconds, a full 4/10 faster than official claim. as for 0-300kmh, 918 claim is 19 seconds, but it's comfortably 2 seconds faster than that. close with P1's claimed time. we used to think 4 seconds to 60 was faaaaasssst! the 'final' spec car should be more than adequate for the owners. it's final in quotation because the car will actually be continually developed over its life.

 

God almighty! These are astonishing figures! All the British journalists are emphatic about how fast the P1 is (even compared to the 918 - Steve Sutcliff, Chris Harris etc.) but I wonder whether their patriotism is getting the better of them!

Given that this is the only one of the three cars a new customer can still order, it is looking better by the day!

 

there is no doubt the P1 is devasting at speed, in gearing, acceleration. it's standing start numbers are very very impressive as tested. but none of the journo's has driven the 918 in soon to be 'as delivered' spec (900+ hp). and yes, those 918 acceleration numbers are just silly. what a day and age we live in. to be able to hit 60mph at cross of a medium sized intersection. 918 will be quicker than P1 in a drag race to 140mph.

918 has more torque at 1k rpm than 911 Turbo at peak torque! Turbo needed 2.6 seconds to hit 60mph with 400hp and 400ft-lb less than 918.

 

All this ongoing development will mean that journalists will have to either wait until the updating ends or do multiple performance tests. It's amazing to see the improvements, but it's also exhausting.

Then again, if the 918 really proves to be that fast, Ron Dennis might have to open his mouth about the P1 again. Not sure I want that.

 

That's just a stupifying idea. Holy cow.

Anxious to see how the LaF does. It's had over 900hp the whole time, but we've seen nothing outside of factory testing and a few customer deliveries. Are the Italians waiting for the very last turn to show their hand? Seems gutsy given this rampant ongoing development by Porsche, and given the P1's acceleration times and downforce figures.

 

Your reading skills are very selective and show an inability to grasp the balance that I am trying to inject so I probably won't respond after this (this is already a much deeper engagement that I usually can stand on a forum).

This is the type of bull**** that just makes me wonder who is the idiot that recruited for McLarens PR team.

We have already established that McLaren has made some (in my opinion) marketing errors. Your language does nothing to enhance your point.

An average speed that was exceeded is not a time. It is not proof of a time. It's just another meaningless, vague and ambiguous figure that McLaren came out with. A vague claim isn't a broken record and McLaren have not broken any records at the Nurburgring - the "performance benchmark" as Ron referred to it as. No one else has ever given us an average speed that was exceeded and left us to work out the rest on our own.

Yet time = speed x distance. In many spheres of life that would be satisfactory. But it is an annoyance, agreed. I have tried to help you understand why it is the case that they will neither release the video nor the exact time: they are unhappy with it.

The fan boy may applaud their efforts of being ambiguous and cheeky but, to be fair, if Ron Dennis came out and said he worships Satan and sacrifices small children Erik would applaud him for that too.

I don't think even you believe that. If you read Erik's posts elsewhere he have voiced his criticisms of McLaren on points.

An average speed, a vague claim, an "insider" comment and a dedicated mouthpiece don't amount to a lap time and don't serve as any proof of a lap time. I love the P1, I posted about how much I like it a few pages back. McLaren's attitude and PR team, however, have been absolutely pathetic so far.

'Absolutely pathetic' is inaccurate. In many aspects they have done fantastically: they have made their cars accessible to all levels of journalists, whether on track or as long-termers. I am not aware of many other companies being so proactive. Yet, as I have previously stated, they appear to have made some naive judgements.

Erik works around the clock defending their ridiculous decisions, making poor excuses and trying to convince everyone on a Ferrari forum that McLaren are superior in every way.

Off the top of my head:

Before addressing these points: I suspect that the apparent animosity between you has been raised by the perceptions of each others posts and have inflamed each others responses.

- He couldn't post the word "LaFerrari" without it being followed by "(lol)" for months

To be fair, he is not the only one. It is a pretentious, short-term name: will the F80 be called 'The Next Ferrari'?

- Criticises the criteria required to buy a LF

While it may not be his place to criticize it, again, he is by no means the only one. I know of at least two potential owners who never even bothered approaching Ferrari for the LaFerrari, even though they both own almost 10 Ferraris between them, including halo models.

- It's the ugliest of the 3 supercars (IHO)

A subjective point, and means nothing if you think otherwise. You may like the Mona Lisa, I personally don't, but I would be surprised if you took it upon yourself to convince me otherwise.

- Claims that Ferrari were struggling to sell all LF's with nothing to back the claim up

I don't know about this.

- Whines over and over again that the mirror stalks are too long

See note on subjectivity.

- Constantly goes on and on about the weight of the car

Ferrari has been misleading about figures in the past, including the weight of the Enzo (see Bill S's proof of this?). I think there is an understandable desire to see quoted figures tested for all cars involved but Ferrari sticks out here from their past claims.

- Harps on about a failed crash test

It is undeniably an embarrassment for such an established company but I am more interested to know how many crash tests fail in general. This would give balance to the story.

- Questions why deliveries hadn't started earlier than they did

It is an interesting question. Whether it should be laboured is another matter.

- Questions the LF's capabilities because he saw a video of it spinning on track

I find this one an interesting one. IIRC it was Machinetto (sp?) that posted this video that has caused such a reaction. Yet, ironically, he also posted a video of a McLaren P1 at a show in Italy claiming that the car was broken (which spurred even more vicious internet chat at the time). I would have thought it was reasonably well-known that very early cars, touring the world as show cars, often have the engine disconnected to prevent start up. But the choice of someone to try (but fail) to start it up resulted in a highly-successful internet video which no doubt earned a few pennies for the poster.

- Criticises Ferrari for not permitting the press to test the LF

Comparing this aspect with Porsche in particular, and McLaren, Ferrari are different but our above critique f McLaren's press strategy is based on a similar premise: they are different so they are wrong.

- Criticises Ferrari for not bringing the LF to Geneva this year

If that is the case, I have to disagree. I was surprised it was not shown in the recent Middle Eastern autoshow but came to the conclusion that they did not want it to overshadow the 458 Speciale. Perhaps it is the case with the California T (although hardly on the same playing field!)?

- Claims that Ferrari are struggling with development and are way behind schedule
- Criticises Ferrari for pushing back delivery dates

As I have mentioned, I do not know the production timetable of the LaFerrari.

And I'm the hater? Seriously?

No-one used the word hater. I suggested that you may want to try and adopt an elementary level of impartiality.

Meanwhile, everything is perfect at Woking, everything is going according to McLaren's plan, there has been no surprises, they didn't want to sell 500 cars anyway, we should all applaud McLaren for not releasing a lap time,

You clearly did not read my post. McLaren has had problems, as all new companies do. My reading of Erik's posts, here and elsewhere, do not disguise this fact.

we should also applaud them for achieving a 6:30-something time that no one witnessed.

Again, nobody said that. Nobody has ever claimed they achieved the 6.30 lap. If they had they would have posted it. The 6.33 was a theoretical time in perfect conditions on simulator. The reproduction of this in real life is a total different ball-game.

ive me a ****ing break

I suggest you give yourself a break. Now I am off for a break...

 

Just out of curiosity how many here tested the P1 and the pre -production 918 with the red button ?

 

Nail on the head.

 

Peter, I haven't got time to reply to all of your points just yet so I will just address this one and get back to the others later today.

The 6:33 time appeared on a vision board, apparently to help inspire the designers and engineers during development of the P1. It was not achieved on a simulator.

At the end of Steve Sutcliffe's Autocar review of the P1 he mentions that a McLaren "insider" told him the Nurburgring time is "6:30-something". A vague and very conveniently timed claim for an "insider" (employee?). Erik has since repeatedly stated that the P1 has achieved a 6:30-something time despite admitting that he has no proof whatsoever of this claim.

I agree with you - if they had achieved such a time they would have released it. But they didn't. What does that tell you?

Will reply to the rest of your points later on.

 

Modena, why don't you just stop posting until there is a lap time? I think everyone is pretty much sick of hearing you whine about it non-stop. You have 200 posts expressing your gripe over and over.

You aren't satisfied with McLaren not releasing a lap time. We get it. Get over it.

I really don't think you have anything meaningful to contribute to this thread. You have no knowledge or experience with the P1 and you don't care about anything other than the NR lap time. You won't believe anything anyone tells you and you merely try to argue against even positive comments from sources who have driven it.

Give it a rest.