Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

With all due respect mate, you’re wrong on that one. I have driven and can point you towards a number of street legal cars that will not only accelerate 0-186mph in a lot less than 15 seconds but will also stop within that time as well. And they were built in friends garages. The BS as you say will stop when lap times are declared, that is the only true performance indicator for cars of this type.

The P1's 0-186 may be slower by about a second of so but that will have little or no effect on how fast the car will be around a track

 

The 0-186 is not yet a hard fact yet but an important design goal based on client feedback.

Theory these days is first validated mathematically and then tested and tweaked as needed in simulation before it's put to the final test on the track. With today's math advances and hardware simulators, the real-life test usually matches very well. I think Jim would agree with that as well.

Tuners and OEMs have been playing with GPS on the track for almost 10 years. It will likely become commonplace in racing when and where it's legal. It's kind of like cheating in my opinion. With 100 hz GPS, we can make cars that drive themselves better than any human can.

It's amazing how often people try to reinvent the wheel. Unfortunately it sometimes takes a lot of effort to see what others have done, and often it's not available.

GPS control of moving bodies has been around since GPS was invented (e.g., Cruise Missiles).

 

Also strange how the only person on this forum who has built his own race car using the very same technology we are discussing also gets laughed at and criticized for not knowing what he's talking about.

DO you know what the hell you're talking about? I'm starting to doubt it myself...

 

No problem. Just curious which "street legal" car can do that and also meet the other requirements (e.g., emissions, economy, safety, handling, looks, etc).

A fast Nurburgring lap time was not a LaFerrari design goal because the buyers didn't care. If it happens to be fast, that's just added icing on the cake, especially since it was never tested there.

I think it would be embarrassing for both Porsche and McLaren if LaFerrari was even within 5 seconds of their cars. Porsche was surely embarrassed when the Enzo was faster than the CGT with a busted suspension and a non-factory driver. I suspect we'll see history repeat.

 

You don't need to over-rev the car in order to charge the batteries. Torque is being produced by the engine still while not accelerating, that, and extra torque that doesn't go to the tyres while accelerating go to the batteries. No over revving needed.

 

So basically, people (both Ferrari and P1 fans) are getting their panties in a wad over a design goal, not an actual performance figure. Nice.

Bench racing indeed.

 

That will be the next step once these KERS systems really become proven in performance road cars. Take it the track, do a recce lap, and hold the "KERS program" button on the wheel at any point on the track you want it to engage. The system memorizes those spots via GPS, and then when you hit full throttle at those spots on a hot lap, it automatically engages the KERS. Probably not that much more difficult than getting that lady with the attitude to tell you your turn is coming in 1/2 a mile, 1/4 mile, "ding ding" "make a left turn now."

ETA: "Recalulating" when you spin!

 

Not exactly although the engine mounted charger works that way. Our system can and does charge under "over-revving", manually, automatically or any way we want to. You've figured out the interesting point. This is why the P1 has a clutch on both sides of the gear box. We only have one but figured out a way to do it basically by allowing the yellow/pit limiter computer to select a gear that allows high revs and low yellow/pit speeds and the excess reving is transmitted through the gear box to the rear mounted KERS unit exactly as much as possible without exceeding yellow/pit speed limits. Under yellow we monitor fuel consumption and "over rev" to recharge KERS but sill leave enough fuel to make our desired stint.

On the last lap of the stint the system measures flow and fuel remaining and alerts drivers to max rev to use on the last straight to make the pits.

We've arrived in the pits with a 1/2 of a liter reserve which is a fine as we wanted to cut it.

Our system can be driver controlled to allow "over revving" charging at any time.

 

Handbags at Dawn 4 sure.

 

The second, engine-mounted electric generator/alternator in LaFerrari provides electric power for ancillaries, but it ALSO provides charge for the lithium batteries. Check the Magneti Marelli description :

from: Magneti Marelli supplies electric engines for the LaFerrari, Maranello?s first hybrid car | Magneti Marelli

"The first engine provides drive to the vehicle and recovers kinetic energy during braking, storing such energy in the lithium batteries for the over-boost power managed in an intelligent manner by the vehicle dynamic control systems.

The second engine, driven by the combustion engine, generates electricity used to keep the charge level of lithium batteries constant, in addition to provide energy for standard vehicle systems (lights, etc.)."

Your system doesn't do this, Jim .. as you've now described more than once. The Ferrari system is more complex ... which is why it's indeed possible for Ferrari, and Porsche, to state that keeping batteries charged is entirely reasonable & expected. The extra complexity of Ferrari's charging system, described several times now, leads me to believe it won't be a "one-lap wonder".


Regarding downforce : Road course racing involves more than downforce (now who's bench racing? ). LaFerrari has more power than P1. We don't know anything with certainty regarding weight, but we do know that the P1 battery pack weighs more ... because McLaren thought it important to advertise the ability to drive xx miles on electric alone.

Time will tell.

 

Yes, people are analyzing what a professional driver does and then the computer takes over from there. Sort of like what you see in the movies for animations that look real. I could write a book on this if I had the time!

 

The flag dropped on that record on January 10Th.

Hennessey Venom GT officially sets 0-300 km/h world record [w/video]

 

OK, if I understand you, you're basically picking a lower gear and running the engine harder (higher revs) to charge the system? Their is no slippage, i.e., the engine is not turning faster than it would for that gear at that speed without KERS, correct? I would imagine you do it this way because the generator charges faster at higher revs?

If your system is really the same as LF's, then it works the way I thought - the LF just routes extra torque to the KERS charging system whenever there is an excess that would be wasted on wheelspin, unwanted acceleration (pit-lane, etc) or the like.

I'd assume you generally don't use yours like that because you generate enough re-charge under braking so that you have no need to charge with the engine, and you have enough corner exit grip most of the time to use full engine + KERS power (KERS is being expended rather than charged during corner exits).

Ferrari's LF system makes sense for its application. With a 6.3L V12 making nearly 800 HP and 500+lb/ft, on street tires and without race-car downforce, it will frequently have excess torque available for charging, especially in the lower gears. Rather than limit that excess torque with TCS braking, put some of it into charging the KERS system. You kill two birds at once that way.

Are you saying the McLaren P1 system does allow the engine to turn faster than the gear/road speed to charge via a second clutch?

 

That is basically a tuner's version of an Exige built for drag racing. That's why only a handful will be build. It's like a Venom 1200, only with a better donor car as its basis.

 

I can say that the P1 system is pretty trick. Also have a look at the 918 system.

 

Impressive for sure. But maybe not as elegant or state-of-the-art as the way LaFerrari does it... and some people may not care. I'd like to live with both for a year or two!

 

If you call production 10 kit cars built under order...
I don't even know if it had to pass any crash or emission tests.

 

That meets all required US Standards and is very nicely put together.

 

Maserati plots new supercar based on LaFerrari (2015) | Secret New Cars | Car Magazine Online

 

The sheer amount of software, and the importance of it in this car is amazing. I have to ask the obvious question . . . do you have a redundant system on board or do you "plug it in" during a pit stop?

 

We have a lot of redundancy. We also have redundant components. During the race when we noticed that the amp usage of a fuel pump was going up we could have the driver "rewire" the car buy moving a switch. Basically we can monitor all of the cars computers remotely. When we see something that needs attention there are two knobs. When you touch one the dash blanks and all you see is a number and an instruction number. The screen and or us on the radio tell the driver to turn the knob to "3" which selects the system you need to service. You then touch the second knob and the screen tells you to select "4" which corrects the problem. As we are monitoring from the pits we can make sure it's done correctly. We used this system a lot. Because we were air restricted we ran at very high compression ratios. (15/1) We had 11 engine maps for various situations including starting, pit/yellow speed,rain, change in ambient temp, tires starting to go off, need to save fuel to go an extra lap, reset crash sensors which were set by the FIA at 3 G's but tipped on the Karrousel at night when we could run really soft tires, changing oil pressure, etc., etc.

 

Very nice guy.

 

Not to hijack the thread again, but EVO's review of the Venom GT was very, very good. They loved how it performed in all areas of basic road driving. It might be a kit car, but I would wager that it's more of a contender for quality driving than you might think.

We'll see what happens if anyone really puts the hammer down on a racetrack with one, but for now I think it's pretty legit.

It's also probably the fastest production car on the planet at the moment.