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Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by mpowered, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. xku807

    xku807 Formula Junior

    Aug 24, 2004
    338
    Full Name:
    John
    Last year's F1 engines had such a contraption as you described. They call it MGU-H or motor generator unit - heat. The motor spools the turbo compressor to reduce lag during low rpm / wide open throttle moments then switches to generator mode to charge the battery during high rpm / closed throttle moments.
     
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  3. xku807

    xku807 Formula Junior

    Aug 24, 2004
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    John
    Mark, love the color of your P1. Congratulations to you and frefan as well. Looking forward to more pics :).
     
  4. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2012
    8,065
    The Horn
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    Igor Ound
    Yes, Ferrari patented that system over an year ago and i personally thought it would have made its way into the 458 successor. I too doubt that Ferrari will ever use engines as generators only but the fact is that one way or another turbos are here to stay until cars become completelly electric.
    Out of topic and many will probably hate the thought, but I have this vision in say 50 years of electric cars with one independent positive/negative torque e-engine per wheel and active suspensions, capable of reproducing and sonically syntesise the dynamics and sound of any given previuos supercar at will, from Ferrari to Porsche, Lamborghini and so on, all at an affordable price. Something like the digitalisation of music brought to cars. Sure the real things will still feel way more special and become even more collectable but wouldn't that be something? ;)
     
  5. cornercompacts

    cornercompacts Karting
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    Mar 31, 2005
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  6. HoboPie

    HoboPie Karting

    Apr 16, 2004
    212
    The turbo comment aside I still disagree. Despite the obvious advantages of the hybrid system everything is still a compromise even when building on the windfall type benefits of the electric motor.

    For example you mention the 918 ring time but we don't have time for the other hybrid cars. Nor do we know what the 918 could do with a laferrari like performance focus.

    I'm not arguing against the eco benefits, but I think it's silly to act like no performance is being sacrificed in the 918 for eco benefit. If nothing else it would likely be lighter if there was less focus on eco.

    So it may be be the best to both worlds for someone coming from a car without hybrid tech. Faster and better economy. But looking at the system itself sacrifices are still being made with what they have.

    Compromise will always exist with finite resources and people will come down on different parts of spectrum of the resources she be used.
     
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  8. kingjr9000

    kingjr9000 Formula 3

    Sep 16, 2014
    1,047
    Slaughter everything around mercilessly.
     
  9. Westview

    Westview Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2014
    295
    I am struggling to understand what performance loss the 918 is suffering from due to the inclusion of the hybrid motors. If Porsche had just the petrol engine, it would be almost identical to the 458 Speciale in terms of a 600hp V-8 engine. Yes, the 918 is heavier due to extra motors and batteries, yet it is comprehensively quicker than the 458. And more fuel efficient.

    If Porsche went with just a larger engine (e.g. Carrera GT V-10) and loaded up the horsepower, it still would not be anywhere near as quick as it is now - it may have a higher top speed, but that is it. The quad turbo 1100+ HP Bugatti Veyron is faster at the top end than the 918, but the 918 easily beats it on a circuit, and of course nowhere close in fuel efficiency.
     
  10. frefan

    frefan F1 Veteran

    Apr 21, 2004
    7,288
    The electric motor combined with a big turbo works very well. The e-motor provides the low end torque, offsetting the lag you would normally get with a big turbo. The turbo provides the HP needed for mid & top end speed. The 2 work very well together. You get more HP out of a turbo motor than a NA one. LaF's V12 is 65% larger yet produces only 9% more power. And with that comes more weight & complexity.

    I suspect an even better combination would be a hybrid turbo 6-cyl to get the weight down even further. the batteries are heavy and need to be lighter.

    I look forward to the electric-turbo but so far what I've seen has been disappointing. You still end up with more lag than if the emotor is connected directly to the drivetrain. The MGU-H system used in F1 is interesting but I'd be surprised if it worked on a road car as the engine is running extremely hot.

    I don't think anyone buying a hyperbrid cares much about fuel efficiency. otherwise we'd be driving diesels.

    just my 2 cents

    p.s. congrats on your car mark!
     
  11. Westview

    Westview Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2014
    295
    I agree that hypercar drivers aren't too worried about fuel efficiency. I mention it only because the 918 does have eco credibility (HoboPie was concerned that Porsche was focussing too much on, compromising the car design). But to me it is a side benefit in a world where regulators are clamping down on thirsty cars. The real benefit is additional power and instant torque.

    I believe that the design of these hypercars (918 and P1 in particular, as the Ferrari is only partially hybrid) can filter down to lower priced cars for similar performance benefits. Imagine instead of a v-6 220 hp Honda Accord, you could have 4 cylinder 150 hp gas engine supplemented by a 100 hp electric motor - much better acceleration and overall performance, yet much lower fuel consumption. The trick in this is to make it affordable.
     
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  13. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 11, 2013
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    Mark, congratulations! That is my favorite color for the P1! Amazing!
     
  14. HoboPie

    HoboPie Karting

    Apr 16, 2004
    212
    I am not arguing that the 918 suffers from having the hybrid system. It is an advantage. All three of the hyper hybrids have proven that. I do not believe that a 918 would perform better without a hybrid system.

    I am arguing, however, that the hybrid power brings with it new choices. Similar to the old choices, but just with a raised bar. The hybrid system almost inherently allows for eco benefits, but it can very easily be used to bolster performance and almost nothing else. The LaFerrari takes that approach, and it still gets some eco benefits, but nothing like the 918.

    Even if the 918 ends up being a better performer in all areas than the Ferrari, which is unlikely, it still could have been a better performer than itself and I'm not talking about just straight line speed. Weight and responsiveness are both factors here.

    To be honest this isn't actually my argument. I just took exception to this line a few pages ago:

    "And why would you dislike "ECO" benefits (your "instead of"), as long as it boost performance as well (i.e., you get both)? "

    which was a response to

    "I also like how Ferrari implements the electric motor for a major performance boost instead of eco driving."

    You don't get both. It's a compromise. I'm not even arguing that Porsche made a bad decision. I'm arguing that the 918 does exactly what original poster said, it sacrifices dynamic performance for eco performance even if both it's dynamic and eco performance are higher than they would have been without a hybrid system.

    The Porsche does things the Ferrari cannot, and the Ferrari does things the Porsche cannot. The Porsche might be the ideal balance, I don't know, but if you are getting both as was argued, then for some people you aren't getting enough of one or the other.
     
  15. MarkNC

    MarkNC Formula Junior
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    May 22, 2012
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    Mark
    Thanks. Sunday can't come soon enough! I'm not expecting much sleep tonight and tomorrow night :)
     
  16. MarkNC

    MarkNC Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 22, 2012
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    Mark
    Wow, thanks. I'll post some more pictures & impressions once I get the car and get to spend some time with it.
     
  17. Adrenalin Junkee

    Adrenalin Junkee Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2007
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    mark if you have a go pro and are willing/able to mount it in the cockpit for some driving footage i would love to see it! Aside from the video from the track tests at the top gear track, i havent seen that angle. and oh course tons of pics!
     
  18. Adrenalin Junkee

    Adrenalin Junkee Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2007
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    and to add to the video *if your willing* some literal first impressions!
     
  19. Westview

    Westview Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2014
    295
    Sorry HoboPie, now I get what you are trying to say (it sometimes takes me 2 hours to watch 60 minutes). I am not sure I agree, but I do understand that the Ferrari implementation of the Hybrid is very different than the Porsche. For Ferrari, the electric motor component makes up a much smaller percentage of overall power, and thus acts as a pure boost (similar to a turbo, but without the lag in order to produce better low end torque) whereas the Porsche can run entirely on electric power (for a few km anyway). Electric motor also powers the front wheels entirely for the 4 wheel drive system.

    Does this mean that Porsche went overboard on the electric power (very large and heavy batteries and multiple electric motors to make the car much heavier than the Ferrari) and thus compromised on the performance end so that it had better eco statistics? I'm not sure since Ferrari does not allow its car to be tested objectively on the track and therefore it is hard to compare. I do believe that at the top end, the Ferrari (and McLaren) are faster due to their higher HP and lower weight. But there are performance advantages to 4 wheel drive, 4 wheel steering and 940+ ft lbs of torque (because of the large electric motors) that would help the Porsche keep up with both of the two other cars at 250km/h or less, and particularly around a track.
     
  20. Whoopsy

    Whoopsy Formula Junior

    Dec 6, 2012
    834
    Vancouver, BC
    Only in theory. But in the P1's case it didn't work as intended.

    P1's turbos are sized a tad too large and the electric motor provide not enough assist to fully compensate the turbo lag, witness the in gear acceleration times some magazines have published. So it is lacking in throttle response compared with the LaFerrari and 918.

    To be able to do what you wrote, the e-motor output in the P1 has to be at least close to 918 level if not more just so the torque curve doesn't fall off waiting for the turbos to get on boost. Or they could have used smaller turbos and boost throttle response but sacrifice top end power.

    You'd think the V12 in the LaFerrari is heavier, but remember it is a simple engine, it does not have all the extra plumbings, intercoolers, valves and stuff that's associated with turbo engine cars, those stuff can easily add another 100lbs if not more. In the end the V12 might actually weight less after accounting for everything.
     
  21. Whoopsy

    Whoopsy Formula Junior

    Dec 6, 2012
    834
    Vancouver, BC

    Fisker used a gasoline engine out of necessity, there aren't any domestic diesels that can be used for the Karma.

    Diesel engines by nature is already more efficient than gasoline, but the emission part is what weights them down. But running at a constant rpm for generator function is a specialty for diesels and turbines.

    In the end turbine will be the ideal power plant as a generator in cars, nothing beats it in efficiency and output for the size.
     
  22. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2001
    3,622
    A lot of heat, though?
     
  23. Whoopsy

    Whoopsy Formula Junior

    Dec 6, 2012
    834
    Vancouver, BC
    That's the down side. Nothing is perfect. And the heat issue means it will likely not be the power plant of choice for a front 'engine' car.
     
  24. Mbn

    Mbn Formula Junior

    Apr 18, 2004
    481
    #15171 Mbn, Jan 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    When it comes to P1 and turbo lag it's way overrated.

    My P1 won't let me drive... busy refreshing some things and getting some good stuff ;).

    Cant wait to Geneva.

    Mbn
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  25. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2013
    9,789
    Mark please do. Its really exciting and I love love that color on the car. I think all 3 are super exciting.
     
  26. Zaius

    Zaius Formula Junior

    May 8, 2014
    857
    Technically these cars are all nice, but aesthetically all 3 of them are outright ugly. I'm trying to force myself to like LaFerrari but after seeing in person it's just too strange. Maybe the design is ahead of it's time.
     
  27. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,615
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    I think both the 918 and P1 are amazing looking cars. IMHO, Ferrari really blew the chicken with the LaFerrari styling. I think it's butt ass ugly.
     
  28. HoboPie

    HoboPie Karting

    Apr 16, 2004
    212
    Honestly I love them all. The P1 is a little odd, but the back especially is glorious. The 918 is just a really badass looking Porsche. The Ferrari honestly I loved instantly. The front took me a little longer to get used to, but the profile, the back, the muscle curvature of it's shape I love.

    Even the F50 which I will defend to death, and the Enzo which I love too took some serious warm up time. The LaFerrari I loved at first sight. It's about the edges, the perfect combination of hard and soft. Some cars are curvy, but almost too soft and then something like the Enzo which is perhaps to hard, too sharp. The LaFerrari is like a crouched big cat with bunched muscles.

    I do think the front looks good, but if I'm being honest I think slightly softer lines might been prettier. But I would change nothing about the profile or the flow. The way the lines pinch down and in behind the front wheel arches is perfection to me. Possible my favourite design detail in car ever. I love watching it, and not just because what it's capable of doing.
     

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