Ferrari/lambo need to get to get their act together...

I believe the EVO FQ400 is actually around $85k. And as stated in the show, there are a lot of compromisies to be made when extracting 400hp out of a 2.0L 4 cyl, even if its a well built engine.

 

Let's turn it around. Do you think a $240,000 Ferrari ought to be 6 times as fast off the line as a $40K Evo? Do you think Ferrari has 6 times the technical expertise as the Japanese makers? (Do you think they have twice the technical expertise?)

Technology has left everything man-made on a fast track to obsolescence, and cars are all just getting better technologically. But the crux of it is that doesn't mean they're a better experience. A TR, Porsche Speedster, 300SL, or whatever offer unique man-machine experiences. What's really pathetic is how sterile all of the latest-greatest cars are. An NSX is superbly engineered, but it looks like it was styled by nerds. An Infiniti G35 is sweet car, but would you put a poster of it on your wall? Who designed it - quick, no web searching - tell me now.

Would I rather have a ride in an Evo or your Testarossa? Call me a poseur, but for anything other than drag racing I'd take your car in a heartbeat.

And yes, a 20-year old car will never win another stoplight race. That's why we have the protective term, "classic."

 

I own an STi and although it is quick it is by no means a competitor with Ferrari. I'd much rather have the styling and exculisivity of a Ferrari.

 

I have to agree, just last night I was with a friend who has 05 Vette which kills my 86 Mondial but everyone was more interested in the Ferrari than the vette. There is a different driving experience in the exotics.

Although I would be pretty pissed if I had a $300,000 exotic and got beat by a Vette!!!

Justy my thought....

 

Lots of different issues here!

First, you make a good point that cheap cars can now compete with exotics much more than 20 years ago in quickness and handling. There's a practical limit on how quick a car can accelerate and corner on even "race" street tires and that limit is being approached in tenths of a second as opposed to whole seconds in years past.

The EVO is a special car. $80k with a supercharger. I wouldn't loose sleep that it's good on a track, plus the Lambo driver made a mistake.

But you can't compare a Lamborghini to a rally car. The Lambo has a much more artistic body, better interior, more sophisticated engine and drivetrain...and looks way cooler. You can't get a car like that for $80k no matter what the engine is.

It's like comparing a Bentley or Maybach to a Lincoln. No comparison even though on the road they seem close.

Ken

 

Bo.....

I agree with what Bullfighter said.....with an addendum.

MB has 600 HP sedans and coupes......cars that cannot hook up the rear tires without the aid of traction control........and any tuner can extract another 200HP out of a Porsche GT2 rather easily with a flash programmer and some bolt on parts......but could you safely use it ?

The experience is just as important, and to me anyways, even more so than the statistics. I've just spent a week driving around in a 1977 carb'd 308 GTB.......it's slow, has manual everything, is antiquated by modern standards, but has charmed the hell out of me in ways that my previous experiences with a 355 and 348 could not.

 

About 18 years ago, I used to cruise around town in a new Buick Grand National and pick on every Ferrari, Porsche and Corvette I could find. I never got beat in that car, but would I have traded with someone who had a 308/328 at the time? Oh yeah. I'm certain I was more envious of them than they ever were of me.

I think the prices on these new exotics are crazy. Would I buy one? I'd have to sell a few things, but I'd take a Murci over an Evo at any time. Would that be sensible for me right now? No.

These cars are kind of a way of life and it wouldn't matter how fast the average car became or how well it cornered, it's not a Ferrari or a Lambo. Part of the appeal is scarcity...maybe not in Cali, but here you'd stick out like a sore thumb.

RMX

 

Amen! At the extreme end is the JATO bottled NOVA, no one can compete with that, until the road turns.

Personality goes a long way...

 

I mentioned in another thread though that the rally AWD cars (EVO, STi, etc) are geared low - past 100mph on a straight I think the Murci would walk away (all the way to 205mph!).

You really have to think of them as a $13k Lancer or $17k Impreza with $17-30k in performance parts (they are still pretty economy interior-wise). For that much in prformance upgrades nearly any regular car could be amazing. A Murci on the other hand is a palette that starts very expensive!

 

Ferrari/Lambo/Maser/Porsche will still be worth something in 10-20 years long after the EVO and WRX have met the crusher...

 

You must realize, that performance is peaking. You can't get much faster than 3.5 seconds to 60 on street tires, remaining street legal noise and emissions wise. It's only a matter of time before these other cars have the technology to do it.

That Lancer EVO VIII that beat the Murci also costs MORE than a Ferrari to maintain. Did they mention that on Top Gear? I think it's every 5,000 miles you need a full engine out service, at the tune of several THOUSAND dollars. Even Fcars aren't that bad.

Also, the interior is cloth, and flimsy plastic, and after it's all said and done, you're still driving a Mitsubishi. No intelligent, logical being on the face of the planet dreams of hearing the weed-whacker exhaust note and probably deafening whine of a turbo pushed to its limits of that boxy, hideous piece of crap. I mean really, that is one UGLY car.

I'd like to see how one of those cars performs with 50k on the odomoter, if it still performs at all. What's the resale on one of those? I'd imagine MUCH worse than any Fcar, even the 550. Where will it be in 20 years? A figment of your imagination.......................

 

Jay Leno complained somewhere that economy cars are just getting so much better that the gap has narrowed:

Another thing about modern cars: You get into a Corvette on a twisty road and you nail the gas and pass a Honda Accord. You just go sailing along, you get to the end of it, you stop and 2 seconds later, the Honda Accord's right there. I'm not talking ten/tenths here, but on a regular two-lane, given modern technology, there's not much difference between a high-performance car and a regular car. Not anymore.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_coll_leno/1302811.html

 

Does it really matter? There's no question that because of technology and competition etc. the mass produced cars have caught up in almost every aspect. What separates the F's/L's and P's is their heritage, relatively lower production numbers(exclusivity?), higher prices, plus performance. But, guess what, it's working. The exotics are staying just that much ahead of the curve that they still are sought after. So, for the consumer it has just raised the bar for less expensive models thus creating more value and features. Fortunately in the end I think the consumer wins.

 

Well, yes. I think this is EXACTLY the argument. If you want a good looking car that holds two people and a suitcase, has a/c and doors, etc., there is a performance plateau. If Lotus makes a $45K car with 190bhp that hits 60 in 4.6 seconds, that doesn't mean Ferrari/Lambo/Porsche should be doing it in under 3.6 seconds. And even then a skilled driver in the Lotus could outshift an average driver (like me) in the Ferrari/Lambo/Porsche and win the stoplight contest.

Performance is an area of diminishing returns. Style and experience are infinite. All of the "artsy-fartsy" stuff is exactly where the exotics own everything else. Anyone on this board has already decided that Corvettes and Vipers don't do it for them, and someone would have to be an idiot to argue that Ferrari needs to make something to blow away those two.

If anything, your Testarossa has "sports car hall of fame" status. I wouldn't sweat it. Enjoy the car.

 

I was out exercising a few of the Muscle Cars in the warehouse today and it struck me - rather hard - just how awful those cars were/are in comparison to modern performance cars.

'71 Mach 1 Super Cobra Jet, '72 Challenger R/T Magnum 440, '65 GTO - All are in good condition, well cared for and well maintained. In any of them, once you get into the secondaries (or thirds) on anything other than a long straight road or the highway, it is terrifying!

The engines roar - horsepower seems to suddenly double, the tires shriek, the front end lifts, the wheel gets loose in your hands, the front end wanders .... it is a contest to see how long you can be brave (or stupid) enough to keep your foot in it as the gap to the next curve quickly closes. Of course, they don't stop all that well - or straight - either.

I am more impressed at how "performance" cars have evolved - the same roads in a 360 present little more than an opportunity to practice tapping the down lever as you blast through the corners. Even travelling 20-30 percent faster, you have complete confidence and are hardly tapping the car's performance potential.

There is more to "performance" than 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

Scottie
www.TheCarcierge.com

 

The super cars embody what Ferrari is about.. ala the GTO, the 288, the F40, the F50, the Enzo, the Stradale, the Challenge cars. The rest are toy cars for the rich. They are not meant to be the pinnacle of engine technology nor are they meant to function as mundane transportation.

They are designed to look fast/beautiful, are made of high quality materials, sound great, and turn a corner well. They are the cars at the peak of the automotive ladder of diminishing returns which has its own kind of appeal and image of exclusivity.

Sunny

 

i actually own an evo. the US version, not the UK FQ line. although my car has ~280bhp, and with ~$2500 it would be a very streetable version of the FQ400 (just some basic power upgrades, with stock drivability).

sure it would go 0-60 in 3.5 but its still a japanese sedan. just because it is as fast, doesn't mean an Fcar is less exotic or classy. i would rather go slower in an Fcar than faster in an evo (although the evo is still an amazing car for only 2.0 liters)

there is nothing that can take the class from a ferrari

 

Supercars or not, I think that there should be a rational limit to engine power on cars designed for the street. And I think 500-600 HP is definitely at or even well beyond this limit. You have tragedies like that 348 destroyed last week with driver in critical care and passenger dead on scene. We couldn't even identify the model of the Ferrari from the wreck! And this was from a collision of a 300 HP 348, not exactly world class engine power by today's standards. If the ordinary cars catch up in power or even surpass, then let them. I think "exotic" has nothing to do with the horsepower. For example, I absolutely consider the Lotus Elise to be exotic with 190 HP, while Porsche 911's are sports cars but not exotics.

 

I disagree.

A crash between two 100hp cars or one solo vehicle collision with 1 100hp car can have the exact same effect (death, dismemberment, unidentifible wreckage). Its the nut behind the wheel that needs to learn how to control their vehicle, be it 100hp or a 1000hp Supra or Viper. Guns are deadly, so are vehicles, regardless of the calibre or the hp.

Sunny

 

while i think the evo may be a stretch, how about the new z06 corvette.

505bhp, over a G on the skidpad, High 60s in the slalom and exotic (somewhat) looks.

sure it misses a lot of the ferrari experience but this is a very capable low volume sports car........Price, 65k.

 

... and made by: Chevy.

Huge tire-smoking bargain? Yes. Exotic? I see 10-20 new Corvettes every weekend, and they blend in like a blonde in California.

I think I agree - low volume is key. However, I took my name off the Elise waiting list last year after sitting in one - I like a little leather and panache with my 'purity' - which might mean I'm more of an Esprit guy.

I have a 911. Nope, not exotic. But gets a lot of respect.

 

Why can't a 10k Rolex keep as good time as a $50 Timex? I don't know, but I know which one will get my attention from across the room. These F cars are art, not just another car. The guy painting my 308 has a 03 Vette and told me he admires my 308. I don't think it would burst his bubble if he knew his vette was a lot faster.