The newer computer controlled cars have very little DIY in the maintainence area. Certainly the 1980's and earlier Ferraris are almost 100% DIY should one be so inclined. We're seeing Ferrai become more maintainence friendly, especially with what I consider the wise decision to go to a chain cam drive. Certainly new Ferraris have way more HP than anyone really needs even with the chain, but that's part of the bling in this kind of purchase. I like your thoughts on the philosophy of Ferrari as far as building a race car for the street vs. a streetable race car. The former is the new school while the latter is what the 1950's cars were. In between they've made a little of both. Do you really think an owner of a 599 is going to want to change his own oil? This guy wants a chain drive for sure. Ken
Excellent post. I think the original post, which compares Ferrari, Mercedes and Lexus is the predominant perspective now. We all want disposable cars with no engine noise, 100K service intervals and $300 major services. Oh - and we want them to look and sound like a Ferrari. Ferrari has basically said 'no', that's not what we do. Porsche tries to do both, and what you get are cars like the 996 that have steep service/repair costs, parts-bin interiors and a numb experience. We're lucky to live in a time where you can have the disposable generic car that demands nothing and provides nothing more than basic transportation, or have something very visceral and involving -- and demanding. So, back to the original post, you need to look at what you get out of a Chevrolet or Lexus, and decide if the additional expense and occasional hassle of Ferrari ownership is worth what you get. But the guys in Maranello aren't tossing in their beds worrying about Ferrari service costs relative GM, Toyota or Mercedes.
Just to let you know how addicted I am to Italian car, 8 (76/77) Lancia Scorpion, 2 (79/81) Lancia Zagato, 1 (81) Beta Coupe, 1 (76) Lancia HPE, 1 (75) Lancia Sedan, 1 (91) ALFA 164, and had a (74) Fiat 124 Coupe, and now 1 (84) 308 QV GTS 3 months old. There is something about Italian car "IF THEY WON'T MAKE IT DIFFERENT, THEY WILL MAKE IT DIFFERENT"
Exactly!! Like I said earlier...economies of scale. Basically the more of something that's made the cheaper it sholuld be.
No kidding. When I was doing my homework, I saw several posts & web sites for the 308 where the numbers $3-$4K/year average maintenance was tossed about. I kept thinking..."No way!". Well, it's the "average" that gets you. I had no major problems nor major costs for 3 years, then had a major service done & had the lower bearings go. Ouch! Average that cost over those three years and it's $3-$4K/year.
I did a service after I got the first 308, and I believe it was just under $400 in parts. That was cam cover gaskets, cam seals, dist. seals, all belts, tensioner bearings, misc. gaskets. Took me about a day and a half of tinkering. Its not a complicated car, its just difficult to gain good access, so you have to manipulate yourself into odd positions. But its still a darn car. Race cars are hard to work on, but they do require a lot more maintainance. And you get back in spades what you put into it. There is a great satisfaction wrenching on a car made by this Enzo guy. Why would you risk life, limb, marriage, financial suicide to pass this opportunity up? Man, I bet yanking the motor out of a 348 is actually FUN. Imagine you own a real F1 car. After Sundays race, the car comes totally apart. Anything that spins, rolls, twists, or articulates is coming apart and will be overhauled. This is the only way to insure that next Sundays car is as perfect as man can accomplish. Stop whining about maintaining these cars and just Do It! You will have a better and more reliable car tomorrow.
Paul, while I don't think anyone can dispute Ferrari's racing heritage and continuing focus, I beg to differ with some of your statements.... In fact, I think the suggestion that anyone who doesn't do their own servicing is just a "poseur" could be a little insulting to many Fchatters. Some of us (myself included) have loved these cars for a long time but happen to either not be mechanically trained or not have the space/home/tools/time etc. to work on our own cars, or both. Since joining FChat and buying my Ferrari (a 308), I have gained enormous respect for all the people on here who are so much more knowledgeable than me, and I hope in time to learn a fraction of what they know and to be able to work on my own car. (For the moment, slaving in my corporate job all week and many weekends doesn't leave much time, and what time I do get I'm out on the road driving!!) But until then, I'm no less "legitimate" than you or them, and the fact that I can't service my own car doesn't make it ok for me to be ripped off by a service department. Maybe you didn't mean to imply that, or maybe you did, but I think that would send the wrong message to many new Ferrari owners who appreciate the heritage, history, styling, power, soul etc. that make up "Ferrari". Anyway, nothing personal and no hard feelings, just felt that this point needed to be made. Cheers, J.
I have an 89 Geo Metro that has cost me $20,000.00 including the cost of the car, oil, gas, tires, struts, timing belt, fan and ac belts, plugs coverting the ac from R12 that has 123,000 on it. it is the car I drive when I worked and when I HAVE to go somewhere. I have a 2004 Avelanche for when I HAVE to haul something (living in rural Kansas, you need a truck otherwise your waiting forever to get goods deliverd. I Have a 86 Porsche 944 Turbo that was European Delivery it has got 23,500 miles on the clock 2,200 at 140 and above. I have an 81 Ferrari 308 GTSi that has 42,000 miles on the clock only 2,000 by me, I have only had her a since Jan 2005. I do preventive maintenance on all of the above- which one do I look forward to- the Ferrari of course, WHY? It gives me a since of accomplishment and saves me the most money. Compare the rates Chey, Porsche and Ferrari dealers and you see what I mean. When I owned an Airplane (tjhe 1st Cessna 150 Aerobat) I did what the owner was allowed plugs and oil chages were about the limit for a "Spam Can" - a non home built. I bought 79 928 Porsche in 1983 and in 1984 I brought 2 suitcases full of Porsche parts back form Germany I saved enough on the parts to pay for my trip. But even then the 928 had so many problems that when I had it "RIGHT' I sold it to a friend that wore out 2 sets of tires before selling it to buy a 911. There was a point made about Ferrari using others off the shelf parts, when I was taking the tour of the Porsche factory they said they used 90% off the shelf parts and Mercedes used 70%.. That means a Porsche is only 10% and Mercedes is only 30% if you use only the percentages,, I believe it is how it is 'packaged'. Ferrari has the 'Package' and yes there is more preventive maintenance is required. But I love the sound of the Ferrari V8 behind me, (yes, I know a 12 is better) The Porsche and Ferrari becken to me for their weekly exercise and after I lovingly rub them down like the throughbreds they are and tend to their needs. The Metro and the Avelanche are work horse and well maintained. The paint on the Metro has seen iit's better days and the Avelanche is still to new to show much were. But the Ferrari and Porsche snug in their covers and exposed never to the elements except the sun and only for a few hours at a time max, glisten like they left the factory, except the Ferrari traded her siver mane for raven black to erase the years and appear younger. My point is that since 2000 I have had a Silverado, an Avelanche and this Avelanche they just utility vehicles replaced when they did not meet my needs. The Meto never gets less than 37 mpg and usually 47 sometimes 50. I fill the same way every time, it's job is to take me where I HAVE to go as cheaply as possible. The Ferrari and Porsche their milage is not a concern it is not their job, their job is to make me SMILE and I reward them the best care I can afford. Sadly it is just me, I have more time than money, and in their cases my time is money. Even if it takes me 3 days to what a shop could do in 1 I am still ahead plus the satisfaction of doing it myselt and knowing it was done right. stephen
I dont really know what I meant to imply. I can certainly understand someone not having the time to work on thier car. But I have a hard time with people who have no basic understanding of mechanics, or how a car operates. Standing nest to your beast with no absolute understanding of what makes it tick would make that person a posuer IMO. When people rode horses everyone knew how to take care of a horse and buggy. Obviously more simple, but we would imagine today we are much better educated? My 9 year old daughter has a rudimentary knowledge of how an engine works. She obviously couldnt understand how a transmission operates but using her bicycle as an example she understands the car needs to shift up as she can imagine the engine crankshaft is like her bicycle pedals. She knows what the radiator does, and she even has a basic understanding of the air conditioning system. Understanding how things work is basic to understanding that things wear out, and making the next jump to maintaining it. Just because soemthing will run hours and hours before failing, is no reason to run it to the last eleventh hour before attending to it. Many times simply overhauling the system early saves many other parts from needless wear. Some examples are brake pads. Replacing them before they get to bare metal can save the rotor needless wear. Replacing a bushing before it wears through can save having to repair or replace the part the bushing is installed in. And while most of the people here are men, we all have mothers, daughters, sisters, and wives, and sadly most women just have no clue how machines work. If we also have no clue, we are ALL entirely at the mercy of Joe mechanic. And if he is unscrupulous, you will have no clue. Neither will your daughter, mother, wife, or sister. I feel it requires us to knowledge ourselves so we understand better how our machine works, and it pays back so much. Now when you feel something you know what to make of it instead of going "duhhhh". Because my father worked on aircraft, as well as his brother, and I did some myself as well as flew a little, I have a good understanding of high maintainence. I believe a Ferrari is meant to be maintained to a higher standard than a basic airplane. In fact, a race car is maintained far above just about any aircraft short of a hard working helicopter. Just about any aircraft can operate 100 hours before going through and inspecting everything. But a racing car may need a 20 hour complete inspection including engine teardown. How hard do you drive? I obviously never knew Mr. Ferrari, and it would be very forward of me to try to speak of how he may have thought. But much has been written. First, he was a mechanic, self taught. His love of machines forced him to learn, and to understand. He learned he was no good behind the wheel, but he knew how to feel things, and went from there. I have read that he hated to see his cars paraded around like showpeices. He was forced to build mundane road cars to satisfy the populace at large, simply to finance his love of motor racing. He had no time at all for anyone who couldnt understand basic mechainics. And I doubt he would suffer much time for anyone hell bent on trying to cut corners by extending maintainence. Nuff said.
I understand and agree with most of what you were trying to say but it comes off a bit abrasive. I agree that folks should have a basic understanding of how things work. I guess I'm just lucky that I like to figure out how or why things work. To tell people they are posers if they don't do all thier own work is pushing it a bit though. To carry your logic a little further do you do all the maintenance on a plane just because you are going to be a passenger on it? Or better yet, do you expect the pilot to do it? No, that's why there are folks like your Dad and Unlce that work on them. Some people are NOT mechanincally inclined and I am certain there are some that should never try to maintain thier cars (let alone thier planes!). This conversation started out with a fairly striaghtforward question and I have yet to see anyone say anything about cutting corners. Now I'm going back out in the garage and work on my Ferrari!
I think that's an interesting point to make. Say you pay $50K for a 328 and $50K for a Benz and keep them both 10 years. Even if the 328 holds value, the MB will lose at least $20K in value. I'm actually surprised that hasn't been mentioned more often!
Hmmm, wonder how long i'll have to 'hold' my 328 till the 'asset' price un-depreciates enough to approach the list price I paid for it in 1989 ?? Assets generate cash flow, 'things' do not. You only win on depreciation if: 1) you buy when the car's already taken it's depreciation hit, in which case it's bottomed out and won't go lower. 2) you buy(as I did) for the 'forever term', in which case depreciation doesn't matter.
I am not an accountant, but an asset is not defined as something that generates a cash flow. Your house is your biggest asset in many cases. If I wanted to sell my car today and trade up, the value of the car is important. Many of us here, I assume, bought our cars used. The fact of the matter is that depreciation IS a major concern. If someone bought a 328 and a BMW 635 CSI 17 years ago, the BMW would be worth about $15,000 today (53,000 miles in good condition). I will say that "asset depreciation" cannot be the sole reason for buying a car, but I believe most people take it into consideration.
A mechanics opinion: All cars suck in one way or another. There is no car made that is maintenance free, no matter what a manufacturer says or whatever. All cars need service. There is a growing belief that the new cars of today need nothing for tens or hundreds of thousands of miles. This is marketing. Effective marketing. While it is true that new cars have the benefit of precise manufacturing and experience that is far elevated from its humble beginnings, the basic design has not changed much. Technical evolution has strengthened parts and materials, allowed computer controlled fuel and spark and all sorts of wizardry un thinkable even thirty years ago. As a mechanic I have decided that if you own a trouble free car, you are lucky. As an Exotic car mechanic, I have decided that because I get to work on Ferraris I am lucky. No other cars (road cars) deserve the lavish attention of their owners like the cars I see every day. It requires real hands on devotion to create such incredibly beautiful, seductively passionate vehicles. Sure, its just a car, but its so indescribably right. If I had to pull the motor out of my 87 BMW 325is to adjust the valves, put on a timing belt, water pump, seals etc., the cost of maintenance would be much higher. If the timing belt broke, I would get another car, not a new motor. In ten years, I will still be putting belts on someones 308. In ten years will you be able to find an I-Drive for your 745? Will you want to? It boils down to want. People want to own nice things and they want to enjoy them. For some, cost simply isnt a factor. For me, I want to help them. I love my job, I love the cars, I love that people love them. Side note: I bought an 85 civic for $50, I had a new motor ready to go in it, but the original motor, with 150,000 miles refused to die. Even with some real abuse. So I just put the new motor in anyway. Anyone looking for a used 1.5 liter EW1? Erik
SOME Toyotas are reliable. My wife's Corolla was on its 4th alternator when we dumped it. It was 8 years old. My daughter's Acura 3.0 CL was on its 4th transmission when we dumped that. It was 6 years. For every story you have about reliable Japenese cars I have one to counter yours. Bottom line they all need fixing, but I'll tell you this my 6 Italian cars (I have 3 right now, one is my daily driver) have been as reliable as any car made. Steve
Everybody needs a German wife - Solid, reliable and dependable. And a German Car - Solid, reliable and dependable. Then gets An Italian car - exotic, expensive and flashy. And an Italian girlfriend - exotic, expensive and flashy. I had the German wife, German car and Italian car when my whole world went in the dumpster - the German wife ran off with the cabana boy, the BMW blew a head gasket, and all I had left to depend on was the Italian car. Never had time to get the Italian girlfriend Now, 20 years later, I still have the 308, but all that other stuff is a distant memory.
My wife is American (1957 blue-blooded). My daily driver is German (1998 M-B SL500). My wife's daily driver is British (2003 L-R Discovery II). My toy is Italian (1979 Ferrari 308GTB). My, but I'm a lucky guy.
