Ferrari Paint Quality

The problem with Ferrari's paint quality isn't so much the quailty of the paint (nowadays) as it is the improper prep of the cars done at the dealership. It seems that when Ferrari's leave the dealership and are exported, the paint is in less then stellar condition. They arrive at the dealerships (wherever) pretty swirled up and scratched from the manufacturing process (and subsequent track time and washing).

It wouldn't make sense for Ferrari to send perfect cars (and invest the time in making them perfect) since they would likely get scuffed and scratched during transport/shipping. So they arrive at the dealership in need of some polishing work.

And here is the real problem. Properly polishing and refinishing paint (truly correcting it) to the highest level is an art forum predicated on skill and experience. On top of this it is very time consuming. Thus making your Ferrari as perfect is it could be is a rather expensive proposition for the dealership. So the quality of people doing the prep work is often no better then the guys at the local scratch'n'shine detail shop. They make the car look good enough (often temporarily) for most people for a very low price.

One way this is achieved is by using polishes that contain fillers or glazes. Think of dull, scratched up black paint. If you flood the paint with water it will look deep, dark, and perfect as the light reflects of the 'perfect' surface of water... Until the water runs away. Since properly polishing paint takes time (and costs money) the use of glazes (which use oils that act like water) is common. You pick up your Ferrari, it looks amazing and new. A couple of washes later and it looks terrible as the oils evaporate and are washed away.

Of course this isn't the permanent rule, some dealerships actually do amazing prep work and high level detailing prior to selling the car. So the problem isn't automatic but common.

I would suggest you hook up with a high level detailer who can truly correct your finish to the condition you desire and help educate you on proper, paint friendly washing techniques which will help prevent the accumulation of new swirl marks.

Here is the condition of two different Scuderia's that I worked on, both belong to F-chatter's.

The first is a black 430 Scud that is in as delivered condition from Italy. The dealership didn't even wash the car prior to pick up. At the time of the detail the only miles on the car where from inspection and around the track.

The second is a red 16M that was prepped at the dealership. You can see that it is not as bad as the black Scud, but still short of what a Ferrari should be.

http://truthindetailing.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=1642&highlight=scuderia

 

Here's an excellent explanation of what you can do with Ferrari paint on a job done to Hawkeye's brand new 458.

http://www.detailedimage.com/Ask-a-Pro/full-detail-and-paint-correction-ferrari-458-italia-by-todd-cooperider-of-esoteric-auto-detail/

I have no affliation with this detailer but I thought it would be of interest.

 

Bdelp,

I live in Vegas too and who do you recommend for superior detailing work?

Thanks

George

 

The only one's I've used is Luis at Wynn Ferrari. He's terrific IMO. I had them do my F430 last week. Contact Rich Kansky in service for the details. If you want his email, PM me. There may be others. I'm just not aware.

 

Really we are going to put it on the dealer? When it has been heavily documented of just how horrible cars come from the factory. I believe it is very un fair to put it on the detail departments and dealerships alone. They basically get absolute crap from Ferrari and are expected to turn it to perfect. Which is just not gonna happen. A polished turd is still a turd. I of course do not believe Ferrari should be sending out perfect cars but they leave quite alot to be desired.

 

Yep. If you don't know what goes on there....I suggest you either find out or keep your opinions to yourself.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289578

Someone asked me my opinion on where to get service and I gave them my experience. You instead seem to want to throw stones at random.

I have put my own Ferrari and Maserati there several times and learned from other owners that they have had similar positive experiences.

You... don't seem to own a car to relate your experiences.

I leave it to others to determine which opinion is more accurate.

 

You bring up a good point. It is hard to 'blame' the dealerships when the cars they receive are in such terrible shape to begin with. My goal isn't really to blame anybody though, just explain (to the best of my knowledge) how things are typically done. I would hate to be the dealership, personally. They have a difficult job on trying to 'polish a turd', while still turning a profit, and making the car's reasonably presentable. This is why, in my opinion, that most (not all) dealerships do very poor prep work. However there are some that do very high level work, it just seems in my experience to be the exception.

I would also add that the problem isn't necessarily limited to just Ferrari (in terms of having bad prep upon arrival). I have seen nightmares (factory fresh, not even washed yet) from Aston Martin, Bentley, BMW, Lamborghini, Lotus, Range Rover (pretty much every import except Mercedes).

Of the factory fresh Ferrari's that I see, I would say that most of them have fairly good paint (except for the swirls/hazing/scratches), as good or better then most anything on the road. There are the exceptions though of course, the F430 Spiders that have no paint on the lip of the air intake vent (where it rolls into the top cover), 599's with pot marks, and a California with several runs in the paint. Whether these are from the factory or from some botched bozo repair during shipping is anybodies guess.

However 'The Worst All Time Factory Delivered Car of All Time' award belongs to Aston Martin. I remember one that was literally 3 shades of black metallic, with one door being atleast two shades 'blacker' then anywhere else. The poor DB9 was so swirled and scratched up, the paint was 'burned' on the lip of the hood and their where still sanding pigtails and scratches around the burn mark.

 

Like Todd Helme stated, Ferrari's paint process is quite good, it's just the finishing steps that are being done afterwards that jeopardize the final quality. I've worked on several brand new ones that literally had the protective shipping film removed and delivered straight to me without being touched in between, and I've found them to be in quite bad condition caused by an inexperienced technician with a buffer in hand somewhere along the production line. To prevent this from happening, or to fix it, a high degree of skill with proper tools are required to get the level of finish that would represent "brand new condition". Not many dealerships employ this level of detailer to properly correct such issues. By no means am I trying to be disrespectful to the dealer...just the reality of their business model.

I too have seen many other high end vehicles that come with less than stellar finishes either from the painting process itself, or from it being touched "by hand" afterwards. Rolls Royce may wet sand their finish to remove orange peel and give a glass-like appearance, but under close inspection you can find a lot of sanding marks and heavy wool marring that weren't finished down properly (just finished a 36-hour refinishing detail on a Phantom). I inspected a DB9 just yesterday with a lot of sanding marks that weren't removed, and holograms in an area where another un-trained or inexperienced person had worked on it.

It's definitely not limited to Ferrari, but at the same time there are many manufacturers out there, particularly ones that produce lower dollar, high-volume manufacturing, that deliver a stunning finish.

The good news is that there are plenty of highly skilled and talented paint correction experts that can fix these issues.

And thank you bdelp for providing the link to the work I did on the 458.

 

Washing your Ferrari (or any automobile) can be quite damaging to the paint. The constant abrasion over time will cause millions and millions of tiny microscopic scratches, that over time will dull the paint by causing reflected light to disperse. The larger of these microscopic scratches will catch the reflected light sharply and cause visible swirl marks. Swirl marks aren't really circular (well some are) but rather straight and oblong marks caused by scratching the paint. They are so frequent that they appear circular in nature as they radiate outwards from the a light source.

So to safely wash your Ferrari (and avoid slowly dulling the clear coat) means we have to remove as many sources of abrasion as possible. This is accomplished by using paint friendly towels and wash mitts, a wash soap with ample lubrication, and filtering the dirt out of the wash mitt before dunking it into the soap solution.

So the first thing I would recommend would be to wash your California using a technique that many high level detailers use, called The Two Bucket Method. Also use large buckets (such as the 5 gallon paint buckets at Home Depot) and for extra safety you can insert a Grit-Guard device into the bottom of each bucket.

The Two Bucket Method is fairly simple: Fill one five gallon bucket with soap and water and a second five gallon bucket with just water.

The second bucket acts as rinse bucket for your wash mitt. After washing a section of your paint with soapy water submerge the your wash mitt into the rinse bucket and move it around. This will release a lot of the dirt and grime you just removed from your car and prevent you contaminating your soapy water with dirt and grime. You wouldn't go to the beach and fill your soapy wash bucket with sand before you started washing your car (for obvious reasons) but this is what happens if you don't thoroughly clean your wash mitt out.

After dunking your sponge in the rinse bucket, lift it out and quickly twist any of the rinse water out, before picking up more soap from the wash bucket. By the end of your car wash, your rinse bucket should be dirty, but your soapy water will still be clean. The rinse bucket has acted as a trap.

As far as which type of wash mitt or sponge to use it is completely up to you. I have used everything from expensive natural sea sponges to inexpensive 'grout' sponges from Lowes. The general rule of thumb is make sure it is soft to your skin and clean. My personal preference would be for high-quality natural sheepskin (lambs wool) wash mitts, as the length of the wool pile allows the dirt to be trapped somewhat and removed vs. ground against the paint. I don't like the synthetic wool mitts however, as they tend to get hard and grimy fairly quickly.

Also use a high quality car soap designed for automotive surfaces. There are a lot of very high quality soaps available. Mix it to manufacturers recommendations. It is always faster to just eyeball it, but we often use way to much soap, which is makes rinsing the car a pain.

Moving on to wash technique, a lot of people do it different ways, so I will just say how I do it. There is no wrong or right answer or any perfect way.

I always start with the wheels and tires first, that way I can take my time and make sure to a thorough job. I also don't have to work about getting water spots on the paint because of how long I take on the wheels. Use different mitts and tools to clean your wheels as brake dust is abrasive and will reek havoc on your paint.

Then rinse your car thoroughly and completely, removing as much loose dirt and grime as possible. Now wash a section at a time, rinsing your wash mitt out in the rinse bucket often. Use lots of water (that's why we use five gallons) and flood the surface with soapy, lubricated water before wiping. Never use pressure to scrub something off the paint, instead lightly move the wash mitt back and forth until clean. Gentle.

After washing a section (or two) rinse the solution off of the paint before moving on. If you wait to long the soap my be hard to rinse and any dirt trapped in the wash solution with sink back to the paint. I like to start at the top of the car then work down.

Wash the sides of your car using up and down motions (instead of left-to-right). While at first this seems awkward (and more time consuming) the reason behind it is because if you lightly scratch a section on accident, vertical scratches are far less noticeable then horizontal scratches in direct sunlight.

After washing and rinsing each section of your car, do one final rinse, with a twist. Remove the nozzle from your hose and let the water stream out of the hose. You can lightly kink the hose to reduce flow. Now systematically flood your paint with a slow, steady stream of water. Water sticks to water, so by flooding the surface the paint, you will cause the water to sheet itself off. It is possible to dry 90 % or more of the car just by flooding the paint.

Now it is time to remove the final, standing water. I recommend using a high quality microfiber towel, called a 'Waffle Weave' towel. These are extremely absorbant, more most importantly they feature a slip nap that will help remove any dust that may have landed on the paint with out scratching like a smooth towel (chamois for example) could grind into the paint.

If you have an electric leaf blower you may want to blow out any cracks and crevices, as well as the wheels, wheel wells, ect, then blot the expelled water dry.

A couple of notes: You can use a cotton towel for drying, but make sure it is a 100% cotton towel, and not one that is backed with rayon or nylon, which will scratch the paint.

You can also use an absorber or chamois, just make sure the surface is extremely clean.

After drying you may want to lightly go over the paint with a quick detailer spray to remove any light water streaks and spots.

Where are you in Canada, I know of several high level detailers in GTA.

 

If swirls, scratches and haze bother you, don't visit the factory. You'll see chassis sitting in the rain or under tarps, finished cars being tested in the rain with mud on the paint, etc... What should the finish look like when they peel all of the white shipping film from the paint? And after the car has traveled thousands of miles in a shipping container to meet you for the first time? If you want to claim it's a dealer responsibility to prepare your car to a near flawless finish that's one thing, have your dealer spends some time on the car before hand and discuss your expectations. I think dealers have a responsibility to create a 1 meter finish (looks outstanding at 1 meter), if you want a 1 cm car, hire a detailer to correct the paint. If you use one bucket to wash your car you're doing more damage to the clear coat than Ferrari ever did. I think Ferrari does a great job, their paint facility is world class.

 

I Have to say that Todd just detailed my 03 360 Spider a few weeks back.....amazing. I had my local guy wash it this last week and cringed as I saw the results.......swirls in a few areas that were not there after Todd was done. He will be getting every F-car I ever buy as long as I live in the Ohio area. A gent like this is worth his weight in gold.

 

Bdelp,

Thanks for your input, since I bought my California from them it should be real easy.

George

 

Both Todd's turn out great results especially considering some of the 'problem cars' that they fix. They say very little of the clear coat is actually removed in the paint correcting process.
In which province do you live?
CH

 

I am not sure if the questions (or just the preceding paragraphs) where directed at a Todd in particular (although I would trust anybody with the name Todd ) so if they where and I am overstepping my bounds with the answer then I apologize in advance.

As far as the bird bomb stain, it sounds like the damage penetrates pretty far into the clear coat. If they attempted to remove it (and scratch marks are still present) then it is hard to tell exactly how much paint they removed with out first measuring the thickness of the paint in relation to the thickness of adjacent areas. If the penetration isn't too deep then the staining can be removed or significantly reduced safely. This would be at the discretion of an experienced paint polisher.

Measuring the paint is always tricky on aluminum (metal) panels because the only way to gauge the thickness is by total thickness (including primer/basecoat/clearcoat). Modern Ferrari's tend to average about 2.5-3 mils(62-75 microns) of clear coat on the newer PPG models (F430 and up). The total thickness will vary between 4.5-7 mils (112-175 microns) on various parts of the car.

The good news is that average swirl mark is microscopic and less then .05 mil (2 microns) in depth, usually less then that. Proper polishing of the paint (key word being proper) will remove just enough paint to remove the vast majority of surface defects and restore a proper, high gloss shine to the paint. I have polished many cars to near perfection while not being able to measure a significant change in paint thickness (less then .1 mil). However deeper scratches and heavy damage is obviously going to require at least isolated spots of more aggressive polishing.

Out of your 2.5-3 mils of clear coat, most paint manufactures recommend removing (at most) 20% of the clear coat. This is because most of the UV protection is in the outer most area of the clear. This means about .6 mils total with no ill effect whatsoever on paint life. To an experienced detailer .6 mils will last a life time, as long as the owner is on board with the care of the paint.

For example: The car is brand new and .2 mils (which would be excessive) are removed to make it 'perfect', we now have .4 mils of paint to go through in the regular maintenance of the car's life. If the car is washed carefully it may accumulate some very light swirl marks that need to be polished out annually. However because they marks so light, a very fine polish can be used to remove them, probably removing <.02 mils. This means the car could be lightly polished 20 more times out worrying about removing too much paint. (By this time the car, if still owned, is 20 years old an likely isn't driven enough to consider polishing more then one every several years).

The problem is when paint is wasted or unnecessarily removed by people who are more concerned about doing the job quickly vs. doing the job correctly. To do the job quickly, an aggressive pad and compound is used to quickly level out the defects. The pad and compound usually creates some significant defects of its own. Then the paint is polished and glazed to make it look great (this affect only lasts temporarily). When the glaze wears off you are left with a fairly rotten surface, which now needs to be polished (hopefully correctly) which means even more paint is removed.

This is why Hawkeye's excellent decision to enlist somebody with the obvious passion and talent of Todd Coopenrider not only means his 458 Italia looks its best, but likely has more paint on it then some off those that are hacked up in a more production oriented manner. I am sorry for rambling on a bit, but a lot of public is unaware that their are significant differences in the quality of detailers that exist, and how much the top guys devote to bettering their knowledge and skill sets to make other people's cars look not only look great but last.

 

Either you don't understand what you are talking about or I am missinterpreting what you guys are talking about...

I don't think you and many of the people on here know very much about paint...


Let me give you guys a hint... a "turd" like paint job could never turn out very good by buffing and polishing. I don't care how long you mask off all of the finer points on the car and then take flattering photos later... **** paint work is just that... and none of what has been pictured/linked is **** paintwork. NONE. **** paintwork can not be corrected by buffing. and to use the term "pain correction" is also a gaff considering you aren't correcting the paint... you are correcting the clear coat. unless of course you are doing about a pre 95 ferrari. The clear coat is a protective layer that also provides the paint with high gloss and luster. When it gets scratched by tiny things such as bad washmits, and $hitty chamois etc... the above pictured is what you get. and then you can take out our buffing wheel and get rid of the new imperfections in the clear coat. However, if the clear coat was thin, or of poor quality, there is a chance that you wouldn't be able to take care of these imperfections.

So while the car travels across the world being fondled by many people prior to arrival, it is the job of the DEALER to make sure the car is 100% before the vehicle delivery. It is there JOB. The factory could polish the car out perfectly prior to leaving the factory, and it would still look like hell after all of the plastic protective coatings and everything get put on the car for protection during shipping... its just part of it. To blame the factory and say they have poor quality control over there paint finish is absurd. when actually there paint is very good, its just gets hammered prior to delivery and some dealers are just lazy. Should they do a 2,000 dollar detail on a car with 14 miles? not unless the customer requests... because thats just ridiculous.

 

I don't think anybody is necessarily disagreeing with this statement. Most of the brand new Ferrari's are in great shape except for the prep work. However you do the semi-rare one that has paint missing in some weird place, or their is obvious D/A pig tail marks in the primer/body panel. The canvas itself tends to be very good, just scratched, dull, and hazy. Sometimes their is evidence of shoddy work however. (Again this can be argued whether it happens at the factory, en route, at the dealer, etc..)

The clear coat is clear paint. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing in the definition of paint that requires it to have a pigment. Thus the term paint correction is fully applicable, as the clear paint is being corrected. I am all for standard, simple terminology, but in this case the term 'paint correction' is applicable and correct. The antiquated term 'color sanding' would technically be incorrect even though the concept is the same, for example.

This is true, but clear coat is still clear paint. It is as much a coating as any other paint.

In most cases this is very true, however I have seen enough brand new Ferrari's that have poor enough (or no) paint in areas and that cannot be corrected.

When it gets painted it is good quality (most of the time) but there are plenty of stories (similar to Hawkeye's in this thread) about the cars sitting outside, dirty, with tarps over them, getting hammered by the weather.

 

well while we agree with each other on most things... clear is not paint. Talk to any body shop. Clear is not paint. It lays much differently than traditional paint and also serves more as a protective layer and gloss as opposed to out right color. and yes color sanding is something done on single stage paint jobs... thats why it should be referred to as wet sanding... but his is semantics in the end.

and I agree that there are definitely some spots that on ferraris that don't get painted and it is pretty terrible.

 

I think we are just going to agree to use different definitions of the word 'paint' then. I have researched the term fairly extensively (I have to because of my other job as a consultant for a large retail supplier) and have had conversations with several paint manufacturers, including DuPont and PPG. I am friends with the former chemist of paint polymer technology at PPG, Dr. David Ghoudassi. I stand behind my assertaion that clear coat is a form of paint that is simply with out added pigment. Clear coat isn't completely clear, but usually a very light milky white, that is so transparent that the human eye cannot conceive its opacity.

The definition of paint: Paint is any liquid, liquefiable, or mastic composition which after application to a substrate in a thin layer is converted to an opaque solid film.

2 seconds in google yielded this...

http://www.meguiars.com/faq/index.cfm?faqcat=paint%20questions&faqquestionid=39&section=_39

Filed under Paint Types:
http://www.eastwood.com/paints/clear-coats.html

http://www.autodetailingnetwork.com/detail-articles-detail-plus/2009/7/30/what-you-should-know-about-clear-coat-paint-finishes.html

http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=15709871

Also if you look at both PPG's and DuPont's catalog (and labeling) you will notice they are referred to as clear coat paints.

While my actual painting experience is rather limited (and often with terrible results) I would say that many paints lay down differently. Various forms of lacquer, enamel, pearls, candies, and metallic paints all lay down differently.

It has been my research that both paint manufacturers and the refinishing industry refer to clear coat as paint. I have yet to see one example where this was not true. Thus it has been my experience that clear coat is paint, truly by definition of the word, as well in the context it is described by its manufacturers.

When I use the term paint correction, I am referring to the process of refinishing the outermost layer of any liquid, liquefiable, or mastic composition which after application to a substrate in a thin layer is converted to an opaque solid film.

 

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree

I do say that you do make some convincing and of course valid points (well of course they are based on the references)

I myself don't consider clear coat as paint. Based on what I do, it isn't. But again, its semantics.

 

I would absolutely recommend that you tell the dealership to never wash your car! I have seen nearly perfect paint finishes ruined with one bad wash. The most stunning example was a black GT2 in South Beach. Two days of polishing where absolutely ruined in 15 minutes by a car wash.

Which brings me to another point to consider. Often times machine polishing (substrate correction ) can take multiple hours or days to correct the damage done from one wash. Think of swirl marks like a mountain range, with the peaks representing the high spots and the valleys representing the scratches. Proper polishing removes the peaks (with out creating more valleys) to create a reflective, smooth surface.

If it takes a day to remove all the peaks left behind by just one bad wash, then it begs the question. What is more dangerous, machine polishing correctly or improperly washing the car?

I have found (as far as sponges go) that grout sponges from either Home Depot or Lowes do an amazing job of releasing all of the dirt in the rinse bucket. I shouldn't really say that 'I' have found, it has been my experience, but I found about grout sponges from other detailers. I still prefer natural sheep skin mitts, but use grout sponges frequently. The best news is they are only a couple of dollars at Home Depot and last forever.

 

Are micro fiber mitts ok?