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Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by ajr550, Feb 7, 2019.
I agree 100%
If you can make a 2,3 tonne SUV go sportscar/supercar fast, I'm sure you can make a small two seater GT-car without having to break up the lines and ruining it's looks for better aero.
I'm going to say it straight out. The Portofino is for me the biggest design disaster coming out after Luca left the building. Looks like the designers just gave it up and found the job boring, so they finnished it without putting in any effort. They ran out of ideas and put together several different designs just to get done with the project. That's how the Portofino looks to me. The 812 Superfast is also very challenging (but I like the GTS). A GT-car does not need that much aero, broken lines and alien-looking features. For a mid V8/V12? Sure, go ahead! But for a GT-car? Not needed.
812 and portofino design for me is not the way. I prefer classic and natural design.
California T or 550 Maranello are best in last years for me.
They are a couple of rungs down on what we are are discussing here. Also, they are blunt instruments.
Matter of opinion. I like it a lot; certainly much more than the California.
Which is not a GT.
Another suggestion by my side: Ferrari could put a transparent plastic panel on the hood, to show the engine, as is the case with mid-engine Berlinetta (F8).
It could be a revolutionary design. What do you think?
Sport and GT
say it's not GT, it's ridiculous...
250 GTO is a GranTurismoOmologata that competed in Lemans. That is, a sports GT.
We can agree to disagree. But I think the Portofino and 812 will age like milk compared to earlier Pininfarina-penned cars. So I just hope they make the new front engined coupe as beautiful, simple and elegant as they can. That's what Ferrari needs in their lineup now, and not another proportional mess. We need a mainstream car that carries the ethos of Monza and minimalism. Pure class. I can't wait to see the car, and so far I am actually very positive
I highly doubt they'll do a transparent hood, but it could be interesting to see. I really think the car will be an overall revolution design wise, concidered the shorter wheelbase and different silhouette. I don't think this one will look even close to the Portofino, 812 or F8.
From your mouth to God's ear. But, I fear that might detract from the exclusivity of the Icona class in the eyes of some? A smaller, more curvaceous F-car would be great IMO. Charge $$ for a manual transmission and see what the take rate is!
I think there's a few things you need to consider. First of, nobody has made an SUV that goes as fast and performs as well as a contemporary sportscar. That is simply just fact. So that kind of thinking has no bearing on anything.
Secondly. You need to understand that the 812 is not a GT and should not be perceived as a such. It does not look like one, it does not drive like one, and Ferrari has it as part of their sportscar segment. It is in no way shape or form comparable to the Cali/Porto. It's a high wound blisteringly fast weapon of a car - it's a V12 supercar through and through, not a V12 GT.
Looks is subjective, and I think when one sees the whole bunch lined up, it makes a lot of sense. There's a design language and cohesiveness that really plays welm when you see the SF90, 812SF, F8, Pista, Lusso and Porto all right next to each other. Of the three entry level drop tops, I definitely think the Porto is the best looking with proportions much more balanced, but that is subjective.
Yes, I've been thinking about it too. But I think Ferrari would go into the wrong direction if they only keep the good timeless designs available to exclusive customers. I think it's absolutely possible to make such a car without taking away the exclusivity from Icona-series or highly limited models. It will be more a matter of materials, power terrains, and other details that make the Icona-cars more special than the mainstream model I'm dreaming of.
Woah, the SUV comment really triggered someone. I never said there's an SUV on the market that performs as well as a true sportscar. But you can get bloody fast SUVs, and when car makers are able to create a 300 kmh (190 mph ish) 2 tonne heavy monster, then Ferrari should be able to create a cutting edge 330 kmh car without having to make it look like an alien spaceship that's about to rip your face off. That's always the argument I get served. "They have to look that way in order to go fast".
Yes, the 812 argument is not something I disagree with. I've driven the 812 myself, and it's certanly no GT-car. It's a mental supercar. But I really don't think it's neccessary to make a car look that way. It will still age like milk, just wait and see. Apart from that, I do agree with you that this is all subjective. In my eyes, the current lineup suffers an identity crisis, but I expect this to go over when the whole lineup is changed out with brand new cars on new plattforms. The transition from 458-era til todays era (Pininfarina not being involved anymore) has not been very good imo. SF90 is the one that will lead us into a better direction, and I think it's a good start.
I will be a as toned down about this as I can. I think that will look absolutely cheap, tacky and horrible. When I first saw it on the C6 ZR1 I thought it looked cheap, even though it was plastic on a plastic car. I can't really think of a thing that can spoil the lines and looks as much as a piece of cheap piece of acrylic slapped on the bonnet. And this is before it starts yellowing from the sun and washing, as well as scratches from stuff being flung at it.
Glass over the engine in a car like the Italia, GTB and Tributo makes sense because it's simply just the rear window covering the engine, and it's real glass, not plastic. On the opposite side of that, as an example, the 458 Spider bonnet Capristo makes with the little "windkw" over the engine looks tacky and out of place as well, albeit not nearly as bad as a 30x40 cm clear slab of acrylic would look on a front engined Ferrari.
Lastly we can add to all of this that the Ferrari engines and engine bays aren't what they used to be. Not sure if there's much to show off in the engine bay of the front engined V8 turbo car.
If it wasn't a GT, you would feel the heat of the engine on your back and the sound of the engine in your ears wouldn't let you talk to your companion, but it's a GT ... and you can do all that ...
Not really triggered, but I am in the category of people who are not the biggest fan of the FUV idea. I've been hearing people say stuff like "Oh, it will be just as good and sporty as an FF or Lusso" etc. and I'm probably a bit fed up with that.
While some cars say Pininfarina on the side, I think many miss one huge aspect of that whole Pinin vs. FSC.
It's the same guy behind the cars... Flavio Manzoni. The coveted F12 was spearheaded by the same guy and team who spearheaded the 812. When people say, "Oh, Ferrari design is no good after Pinin was dumped" etc. they forget that most of the Pinin team went to FSC. Let's look at the Flavio car lineup.
488GTB and Spider
488 Pista and Pista Spider
Monza SP1 and SP2
F8 Tributo and Spider
Those are the cars he spearheaded, and his Compasso D'Oro of 2014 is no small acknowledgement in itself. Add to all of that he was a big part of the 458 design as well. When people say it's not real Ferrari or ti's not Pinin and what not, they tend to forget who was behind it all. Pinin is just the name on the tin, it's the guys within the design team that decide. It is also just as important to remember while Pinin did the design instead of FSC, Ferrari still had to approve of the design. Some like the Luca era, and so do I, for the most part anyway. But I do also think it grew stale and change was needed. As great as I think the 550 Barchetta is, just as bland and boring do I think the 599 is, and like the 599, I'm not sure the Cali or 458 have aged that well when all is said and done.
Flame proof suit on, fire away
I am aware of Manzonis portfolio. The problem here is Ferrari getting different owers. Shareholders that want to create as many cars as possible in order to get more money out of their shares. There are different people that runs the company now. And that will make different cars. They are the ones who approves models for production and not. Manzoni and his team creates beautiful cars when they get to do what they're good at, and no one from above telling them and bothering them.
But I think it's the transition from Luca-era and todays era that is the fault of the lack of identity. They will eventually find it. And so far, with SF90, they have done a good job.
Now, enough with this. What do you think the new coupe will be like? What kind of car will it be? Is there really a need for a fixed roof front engined car? Do you think Ferrari will saturate the brand by creating so many models?
Oh dear, not sure whether to laugh or ? By your logic the Pista and 458 Italia are GT cars then. You can talk to your passenger, you don't get heat from the engine on your back, so it's a GT. Right. Your logic is spot on...
We agree on some things, others not, and you have some valid points. Not sure that's exactly how it is, but that's just difference of opinion.
Yes, let's move on
Not entirely sure what it will be. I have actually not asked whether it would be a GT or Sportscar segment car. If Ferrari has developed to fit within the sportscar segment, I think it could be a nice V8 Vantage style deal. Not so sure what exactly its role is if they put it in the GT, but then again, if they really do go through with discontinuing the "full size" 2+2 in favour of the FUV, then I suppose it will be sort of their 2+2 GT, but now with unusable rear seats
because they wouldn't have worked enough ...
that you have or drive an 812, it does not give you authority to say that the model is not a GT. It is and will be ridiculous ...
Nice thinking. My bet is a V8 Vantage style thing for sure. I doubt it will have rear seats since the wheel base is so short, and that makes a cool adition to the lineup imo
"because they wouldn't have worked enough ..." What does that even mean?
And owning or having experience with the 812 does not give you a valid opinion on whether it's a GT or not? What in the world does then, and is your word gospel? Oh, excuse me o wise and all-knowing Senior Pininfarina for not following your teachings and the gospel of Gran Tursimoism. Honestly, if anything is ridiculous, it's the statement of "fact" you made previously, as well as your statement regarding authority. If anyone is an authority, I'd say it's Ferrari, not me nor you. Ferrari classifies it as a Sportscar, not a GT, and from my experience, that fits spot on. But your opinion may differ, but that's your opinion, not fact. By your logic, anything that is not a Challenge car or more raw, is a GT. If we go by noise and heat, a 250GTE is not a GT car apparently. Funny, I think Enzo himself would be quite bewildered by that logic. It's loud as hell and it can get quite hot in there from both engine and exhaust. And the 250 GTO being a "GT" because of Gran Turisimo Olomogato? What the h? It's a homologated RACE CAR for crying out loud! If a 250 GTO is a "GT", I suppose a Le Mans ready Aston Martin GTE is one as well. You know, Gran Turismo Endurance and engine in the front? Just, uh, be careful of the scaffolding in the car getting in and out while shopping for groceries...
Yup. Moving on. F169, please....
Beauty is subjective and everyone’s opinion is valid for the most part. BUT the Portofino is beautiful gorgeous car. Elegant and fluid shapes and disguises it’s hard very well too. The market agrees as it has been an excellent seller so far, I would anticipate the Coupe will probably sell even better otherwise Ferrari wouldn’t be introducing it. The 812 is more of a brutal design than a classic Ferrari GT that’s because it is not really a GT it is a front engines Supercar. To many cuts and scoops but the design team had an aerodynamic target to hit and had to compromise on the design compared to the simpler, more refined and classical looking F12. All this obsession with Pininfarina and the past is like someone struggling to get over an old flame. Ferrari had to move on and it has been for the better.
I pray that you are right. That would be very exciting.
Not this discussion again. We have beaten in to death.
GT is an old nomenclature that distinguished the road cars from the Prototypes and F1 cars. This has changed nowadays, with Ferrari having two ranges, the Sport range (812, Pista, F8) and the GT range (GTC4, Portofino). It's all in their official paperwork.
Regarding the 812 it doesn't drive like a GT, but like a supercar, sportier than a rear-mid engine Aventador! Thus, Ferrari classifies it as a super-sportscar.