Ferrari ROMA

I like the Roma. But a wet sump engine cannot be the world’s best. It’s a compromise.

 

Well, Porsche used to have dry sumps on it's famous air-cooled era and now it's only a something reserved for track oriented cars. I really don't understand very much this thing about dry sump lack and it being something definitory of a Ferrari being proper or not. In all honesty, having raced for many years, most people don't go fast enough around a track in a street legal car for a dry sump to be mandatory, not to mention if they wear sporty yet not slick tires on their cars. So you can still have fun around a track and be reasonably fast without a need for a dry sump. That being said, I can't say about the percentage of people tracking their cars but I would dare bet on a vast majority not doing it. Yet, should you be serious about tracks, you would surely enter one with a proper race car with roll bars and cages in the first place so that you could go seriously fast without the concern of being killed in the process, one with no leather seats, satnav and all the luxurious gadgets our road cars have.

"We build engines and give the rest for free". Yeah, right, we all buy the Ferraris based on their engines and never pay attention to what they look alike or how their interior is. In fact we just don't invest time in the configurator, just the engine, all that matters, who wants a nice interior...

 

Why?
(For street cars)
World’s best at doing what?
Certainly Ferrari has made cars throughout its history that were not track cars. the Colombo v12 was wet sump in some applications. Were those cars a compromise?

 

Let me reverse the question for you: why has Ferrari traditionally used dry sump designs in its highest performance models? What reason is there to use a wet sump design in the Roma other than cost savings?

Nice explanation from auto.howstuffworks.com:

“Dry sump systems have several important advantages over wet sumps:

Because a dry sump does not need to have an oil pan big enough to hold the oil under the engine, the main mass of the engine can be placed lower in the vehicle. This helps lower the center of gravity and can also help aerodynamics.

The oil capacity of a dry sump can be as big as you want. The tank holding the oil can be placed anywhere on the vehicle.

In a wet sump, turning, braking and acceleration can cause the oil to pool on one side of the engine. This sloshing can dip the crankshaft into the oil as it turns or uncover the pump's pick-up tube.

Excess oil around the crankshaft in a wet sump can get on the shaft and cut horsepower. Some people claim improvements of as much as 15 horsepower by switching to a dry sump.

The disadvantage of the dry sump is the increased weight, complexity and cost from the extra pump and the tank -- but that's a small price to pay for such big benefits!”

Like I said, I think the Roma is a nice car. But you’ll never convince me that it’s Ferrari best effort or has the best engine in the world as another poster suggested. It’s a compromise solution built to a significantly lower price point than most of Ferrari’s other recent models. I’m an engineer and also raced for several years, so maybe this stuff means more to me. Whether I track the car or not.

Given the choice between a new Roma or a pre-owned F12, I know which one I’d buy for $230-250K USD.

 

So you’re saying that for people who need to be able to tell others they have the best of everything, a dry sump is needed.

If you can tell me for what you actually use your Ferrari for that you can honestly say you could tell the difference without being told, then you’re in the .1 or less percent that actually has oil starvation issues at the track. Anything else is bar room bragging. Which is fine, but please be honest about it.

 

I’ve actually tracked every Ferrari I’ve owned but that’s besides the point. I simply care about engineering excellence, especially when I’m asked to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a car. There are tons of more practical and less expensive vehicles out there if purity of engineering design isn’t a priority.

Sorry for pushing your emotional buttons. Wasn’t the intention. There’s no need to psychoanalyze each other. Like I said, I like the Roma. Merry Christmas to you.

 

That is a little harsh my friend...Ferrari sales are through the roof, so I don’t see them having a problem and many Ferrari loyal customers would disagree with your assessment. We heard exactly the same when the 911 went water cooled. Have you seen the Porsche diehards disappear? And if they did, did it cost Porsche a cent? We heard the same again when Ferrari went turbocharged. Again they seem to have done well out of it.

Ferrari’s objective is not to maintain diehards. It is to be profitable for its shareholders. So as long as their product design is delivering results, I would say they are doing well, wouldn’t you?
By the way, not sure if you would call me a diehard, but I have been with the brand for 24 years and owned various models from 1964 onwards. I understand the Ferrari you speak of, yet I still ordered a Roma, because I think it would make a very usable GT.

The biggest issue Ferrari and any other manufacturer has at the moment, is that the new generation of drivers doesn’t like driving. Now THAT is a problem


Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat

 

I was at the factory for a meeting and was fortunate enough to be allowed to see the Roma.

I found the car to be beautiful from the instant I saw it, which was from ninety feet away and a three-quarter rear view.

I liked it so much, I’m speccing the car in the same exact spec I saw.

 

Rich older folks with slowed responses? Sounds like sour grapes when considering its a diminutive wet sump turbo V8 that can't muster beyond 7500rpm. Does not need four tail pipes. As pointed out previously many buyers are likely on a budget but still want the shield which makes sense for the entry level car. As large as the engine bay appears I do not think a V12 would fit in it and the balance would be too far off. The alternate power train for this car down the road is full electric IMO. That would be in line for the type of future buyer and the cost point.

 

No emotional buttons pushed. I have three Ducatis because of desmodromic valve actuation. I also admit I couldn’t tell if the bike had valve springs or not by riding it at the track. We like what we like. Got to be honest with ourselves that’s all. Snob appeal versus what’s fun driving if nobody else could ever see us or hear about it at the pub.

 

Admittedly, I haven’t seen the full specs or the engine itself, but it is very likely not a pure wet sump, but an integrated dry sump, which is a half measure more than adequate for the Gs any road going Ferrari can muster even on sticker slicks. Engineering of a lubrication system is just that, and should be more than adequate for the application; which in this case is very likely. I track all my street cars but I certainly don’t race them wheel to wheel; an occasional time trial maybe. If the Roma blows a lump, it won’t be my first car to do so, or likely my last, but I’m not buying it to compete with a GT3RS and I’ll replace it and maybe add an accusump if I like it enough to keep tracking it.

 

Aren't you being a little too critical? I appreciate your penchant for engineering excellence, in this respect i can also agree with you. But shouldn't we always keep an eye on the whole package, the product in its entirety? I don't think anyone wants to break any track records with the Roma, it's a GT, so I think this "compromise" is perfectly acceptable, or in other words, in this combination it's definitely not a compromise to use a wet sump engine. And if I follow the link of lucasines I guess we are not so far away of "world's best turbo engine".

In the tread further down you mention the F12. This "product" may have an excellent engine with a breathtaking sound setting, but taken as a whole, this car is anything else than a superior engineering excellence, emotionally excellent, technically it has weaknesses. Especially from the point of view of maximum race track agility, the heavy V12 behind the front axle is a bad compromise compared to a lighter engine. Engineering excellence? I think under the perspective of engineering excellence the technically perfect product does not exist. Or it is definitely priceless/far too expensive.

 

This whole dry sump affair reminds me oh so much to the discussions back in it's day held at Porsche forums... There's quite some difference, a vast one actually, between tracking your car, and racing it. The first is quite a fun, amateurish thing to do which gives you sensations not easily (or legally) obtained in street driving. You would enter such tracks with your street legal cars, very powerful and intended to be reasonably competent at a track while capable of taking you to the groceries store, or to a restaurant with finesse and luxury. An antagonistic compromise.

If you are serious about speed, you just enter a track with a race car for it will keep you mostly safe as when you are really fast, you end up with an accident with some undesired frequency. Race cars are solely intended for speed, no comfort, no glamour, no sound deadening, no leather just purposely built for tracks.

For a dry sump to be necessary in a road legal car, tracking it or not, you have to be very serious about speed, and not one race driver I know of, will be very serious about 10/10 speed in a road legal car, heavy as they are. Starting with safety, which is a concern only if you go fast enough. If you don't, not much to care about your sump, really.

Can't argue though that a dry sump is better than a wet sump. So are engines capable of revving high as 20.000 rpm as was usual in pre-2014 F1 engines those that would idle at around 5.000 rpm. Not very user friendly, though and we wouldn't want such degree of mechanical excellence, I presume. Or would we?

 

Not much heavier, if at all, than a twin turbo V8.


Regarding the dry sump, I don't get all the furore, given that it's not a track day special like the Pista, but a grand tourer.

 

What is the point of a V12 if a V8 is lighter, just as powerful, smaller, more fuel efficient, and cheaper to make ?

If you try to explain to someone what's a Ferrari V12 you can always refer to the limitless torque, the ability to rev into the stratosphere, the immediate response without lag and the smooth delivery of power. But soon enough you’ll turn to the sound, the defining element which simply can’t be recreated by a trick turbo. If that's not engineering excellence can only be magic.

 

My wife who is not a car person and who does not like cars except for practical uses literally fell head of toes in love with this car when she happened to come across a picture of it on the internet. She calls it her second husband (and we don't even own one yet). The styling of this car will sway lots of people over even if the engine and/or technical specs are not up to the usual Ferrari standards.

I for one am happy as that means we get to have this car as our true secondary car to use pretty much everywhere we go.

 

You make a valid point about the F12. Its ultimate handling capabilities aren’t as good as the recent mid-engine models.

I guess we’re all colored by our personal experiences and reasons for loving the brand and its history. I’m 52 years old, and my childhood dreams centered on Ferrari’s early racing history with the front-engined V12 models from the 1950’s and 1960’s. I also fell in love with the 512 BBi (and built several models of it) during my teenage years, and that still had a V12. I’ve now been to the Ferrari factory four times, and my favorite part of the tour is always watching the 6 master mechanics & their apprentices hand-build each V12. As a kid, I also used to dream about handcrafted sailboats like Beneteau, and I’m a sucker for Italian tailoring, mechanical watches, etc. So, I’m biased to associate Ferrari with handbuilt, racing-derived, pinnacle V12 engines - even when the overall package might be arguably compromised on some level like the F12?

I don’t mind genuine progress, e.g. I’m a huge fan of the DCT and purchased a Pista because I appreciate the achievement of the turbocharged V8 engine and overall package. I’ve owned a Porsche 993TT for two decades and never had an issue with the introduction of radiators.

However, Ferrari’s move away from a racing-inspired dry sump engine design doesn’t feel like progress. It feels like bean counting. But no worries if most here are fine with it. I feel the same about anything electric. It may have faster acceleration but it does nothing for my soul. I tried watching Formula E once and turned it off after 5”.

We’re all wired differently. It’s good to have choices.

 

Are you a design expert? Certainly not! Do you know what the future of the brand looks like? Of course not! A kind of retro-design?! In which world do you live man...?

 

No different than a Portofino, or a Cali-T. Why is this suddenly an issue now? You are an engineer and can surely understand that the remit of these GT cars is different to that of a Pista or an 812.

 

That's because she has a good taste, Dave. Congratulation in advance, BTW la ROMA is way more elegant in real life than any picture

 

I guess you are one of those unique guys, who are always searching for perfection, If I was right and you are one of those guys, you'll never be happy with the Ferrari ROMA.

 

No sour grapes here as I am a big Roma fan. I have a dry sump engine in my 2017 NSX and I doubt the car will ever see the track while I own it (still a cool engine).

My point is that the commentator has a preference for more/better performance with each new model. Ferrari as a company (said better by others) is trying to get new folks into the brand (amongst the many things they are doing). So this time around they went with cleaner styling and a modest performance boost over the Portofino.

I recently did a sports car customer in person survey sponsored by Ferrari (paid $599, that number is not a coincidence). They were super interested in my thoughts on Aston Martin and McLaren and to a letter extent the Audi R8. Plenty of questions on Ferrari and their dealerships (yes, I was super happy they showed the Roma without shields, great that they changed the interior controls on the new cars to get rid of the goofy HVAC controls, the BS about not being able to walk into a dealership and order a car without a relationship should end, it would help if they upped the quality game (dead batteries wtihin a week, trannies crapping out, paint being so so)).

 

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I would advice a three point plan:

1. Produce much less
2. Keep the V12 NA
3. Fire Manzoni

Maybe not in that order though.

 

Excellent post Sir, "said It all".