Ferrari South Bay Track day on Sept. 6th Fontana

First I have heard on this. Pretty steep at 7 bills...I understand that you only have exotics on the track, so less chance of getting "dive bombed" in turn 2 by morons trying to show you up in their Subbys, but a lot of coin.
You signed up ?

 

Minor surgery scheduled day before, so a no go for me. I will need to sign up for notifications at one of those dealers, would like to attend next event. Have a good time and be safe !

 

I went! It was so fun and I'm glad I went!

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Is this event open pass or point by? Usually point by you shouldn't be getting dive bombed. I will say some of those time attack scoobys are very fast and it would be wise to not underestimate them.

 

Was this for the 360 or another car? If it was for the 360 I am surprised nobody had it in stock.

 

This happened many, many years ago with Speedventures @ Fontana. A experienced Evo and Subby driver signed up for the beginners group, obviously had lot's of track time and knew the track well and proceeded to dive bomb people, including me after turn two at over 100 mph.....and no was not a passing zone, and yes point by only in the 2 straight areas designated.

A group of us cornered the Subby guy after the session and pretty well brow beat him, he ofcourse claimed he would not do it again and did not know.... however both these guys continued to pass without a wave by even after moving up a group.
We reported this to the Speedventures guy who seemed indifferent and figured we had talked to him it was taken care of. Aaron the head honcho of Speedventures was not present....so only this one guy monitoring the action on the track, and to top it off the only Speedventures guy gets on the track for a session leaving no one to monitor the track action !

I had several emails and a phone conversations with Aaron about this, did not get the impression he was banning these guys from future sign ups, thus have never ran with Speedventures since then.....

 

Wow what an experience! If they had a lot of track time they should have stayed in the open pass group especially if they are going to dive bomb people. Doing that in lower groups is just very dangerous. As a matter of fact I wonder why the track monitors weren't black flagging them. The only thing I can assume is they may be heavily involved in Speedventures time attack series which is probably why nothing came of it. Those guys funnel a lot of money in, so it may have been a case of "don't bite the hand that feeds you" type of deal. Pretty much every organization is ran similarly. And just a fyi, very rarely have they ever banned anyone from signing up. That is money in their pockets. Now I have seen people get black flagged and maybe banned for that session, but a complete ban I have not seen. So I am not surprised they didn't get banned.

 

I heard and read about these 2 characters later, they intentionally Went a group down to outdrive and blow by beginners. Doubt any time attack participants would ever do what they did, they were just a-holes. Nope...only a couple of workers and one guy running it, way understaffed and dangerous. I was not the only one who told Aaron we would never run with him again.

 

Wow that is crazy. Sorry that happened to you. That stuff should never happen.

 

In defense of Speedventures there is a huge range of skills from the 1st timer to the club racer. What a club racer does next to a novice might seem scary and extreme but really might not be at all. I don't know the situation under which this occurred but if Aaron and crew think it was OK it probably was OK. That's why there is the complaining session download after the morning sessions to iron out things like that. 9 times out of 10 there are no real issues but guys in the top red group whining about another guy not letting him pass when it is an open passing group and the passer should just grow a pair or come into the hot pit to get preferred spacing. No one is divebombed in T2. T2 is on the oval and it is 8 cars wide like getting passed on the 405 freeway with its bunch of lanes. A dive bomb is having your apex stolen forcing you to back out. That's not even allowed in the red open passing group which is simulated race conditions.

What Aaron and Speedventures have done is prove you don't need a Porsche club HPDE structure to achieve a high level of driving. I would race next to a Speed Ventures Red group driver just the same as a guy who took years following the Porsche Club ladder.

 

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Well according to this track layout, assuming this is the layout he is referring too and going CCW, I can see exactly how you get dive bombed on turn 2. It is NOT the roval. It is the end of the roval. And this turn you can easily get your apex stolen from you. Granted I was not there at the time, but I have been to ACS.

And you are right a lot of these organizations have really proven a civic with the right driver and setup can be competitive against many other vehicles. Hence, why I said do not underestimate these other cars out there.

 

Where is this map from? I have never been to an event at ACS where they ran this configuration. It is not the typical layout.

 

That layout is dubbed their motorcycle layout, but like I said I wasn't there so I have no idea what layout they were running. But you can find the layouts here: https://www.autoclubspeedway.com/Guest-Info/Track-Maps.aspx

 

You need to go back and read what I said, as you obviously have not. I was in the beginner group, wave by passing only in the 2 straights, no passing AT ALL except there. These guys where passing on the roval between 1-2, and then would come screaming down in front of you (taking the extreme upper) after turn 2 into the braking zone cutting in front of me and others, startling us. The map shown is not the roval we ran.
Again, NO PASSING AT ALL in the zones that these guys where doing this, understand now ?

You are basically saying this never happened and I created a story, ("no one gets Dive bombed turn 2) I take personal offense to a attack on my integrity, really dude ? I am going to make this crap up ?
So the other 3-4 guys that confronted the main offender are full of crap also also ? You where not there ....but come up with all this ? Wow, just wow man.

You are saying Aaron was OK with this, again foot in mouth, really Aaron ok with what these guys did ?
Aaron did not appear to have the full gravity of the incident when I contacted him, the Speed guy there aaparently did not relay the issue, or down played it. Remember I said Aaron was not here ? Only had one guy running the deal, and very little help, remember ? Read.

Bottom line is that was when Speed was first starting out, 8-9 years ago, the guy on deck for Speed was useless, (got on the track himself with his car) and I felt that instead of losing me and others for Speed events, he should of banned that one main offender at least. I have no hard feeling towards Aaron, the Roval can be ran with many other groups, I just held by my convictions to not run with Speed since he did not commit to banning the offender. Just part of life. Now someone saying this did not happen, that riles me up.

 

I know that wasn’t directed towards me but I completely believe you. I take track safety seriously and for them to do that during a run group where passing was prohibited I don’t condon either. I am thankful you ended the day safely.

 

Well, I have many "likes", but I guess I'm not liked by everybody. If any moderator thinks I have made a "personal offense to a attack on my (bert's) integrity" , I'm happy to take the "timeout/ban."

You have painted Speedventures in a negative light. I'm just saying there are mandatory "download" sessions after the the run group. If a driver feels slighted that's the place to air it all out. No other group I know of does that. It is a nice service no one else does. Second, You can see T2 in the Roval trackmap. T2 is on the banking. It is like 8 cars wide. A divebomb would occur in T3 the entrance to the infield, not in T2. I'm not disputing how you feel. But, I'm not convinced a divebomb happened in T2. You may have been passed against the rules and you might not like it but it wasn't a dive bomb. I have raced/driven that track too many times to count and I don't see how you can divebomb anyone there . Third, SpeedVentures is a perfectly fine safe HPDE group but they are not for everyone. They run an exotics group sometimes but if you want zero damage to your paint and a super clear track the $800-1000 trackday is for you. If you run with Porsche club and do their HPDE ladder they will put an instructor in your car, before allowing you to solo, who acts as a second set of eyes. They have a very academic program to take you from a street driver all the way to a wheel to wheel racer. AROSC.org has a great program with real on-track instruction that is in between.

I'm an SCCA clubracer but run plenty of Speedventure events when Aaron was just starting out too. Your posts say 2 guys broke the passing rules. OK so what? You did not say it but did you think was done unsafely or inherently unsafe because it broke the rules? Are you just mad because they passed you? The rules are there to turn down the volume so to speak on track driving. But you are still on a race track. It is inherently less safe as the speeds are limited only by horsepower and nerve. Alot is happening and it can be overwhelming if too many things are happening at the same time. But you have to be prepared for something bad to happen everytime you go on track even in the novice group. The guy in front can crash. You can hit the oil from someone else. The guy in front can spin. SpeedVentures does have instructors to help people not be startled on track and be a second set of eyes. There is nothing more critical on track or even driving on the street than "situational awareness." IMO no one should ever be startled on the track because they should be aware of their surroundings. The guys who improperly drove passed you did not startle you. You allowed them to startle you. You need to expect the unexpected and hope everyone does what they are supposed to do. If you plan to be on-track for a long career pick a club that suits your personality. I like SCCA. Racing is rubbing. I'm OK bumpdrafting my plastic corvette on AutoClub speedway at 15o. Others have expensive cars like the Porsche guys and they are a 13/13 club adverse to the slightest touch. There is something for everybody and they all have their champions and foes.

As a clubracer what you see as unsafe or scary might not be because you might not have the deepth track perspective as a novice. That might be why you also felt Aaron did not care. You may deem something unsafe for you and that's fine. You vote with your wallet. I'm a racer so I have no dog in this hunt. But I want to put out a different narrative based on what I have experienced many times at Speed Ventures and based on my decades of on-track experience. SpeedVentures has a very good record of safety just as safe as the Porsche club with its much stricter HPDE ladder. If Speedventures was unsafe they would have long lost their insurance and that would be the end of that.

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If they didn't hit me it was a "clean pass"

 

+1 what Fatbillybob said.
Speedventures is one of the best HPDE group out there. not safety Nazi like NASA HPDE or PCA, but not dangerous like some organizations out there. I've been running HPDE/w2w since the 80s. Ran with every organizations there are in California. Speedventures have a very good safety record, and their red group drivers are some of the best.
Your issue was a couple of guys made improper pass at T2 (T2 is as widest corner in California, so I also wouldn't called it a dive bomb, but still shouldn't do so in beginner group). you've made a complaint, Aaron is aware, the 2 drivers are aware. It sounded like they then moved up a group, where passing rule is more laxed.

NASA HPDE or PCA ladder might be a better fit for you. They have a very strict regiment, which works for some people. Don't get offended by Fatbillybob or me. Track events are naturally unsafe, you will meet ******* drivers as in real life. If you are mad about some drivers making improper pass at T2, it only gets worse as you progress up the group. You might get taken out by someone dropping coolant (which you shouldn't run on track, but ignored by everyone who daily their cars), get cut off by someone completely unaware. Heck even in F1, highest form of motorsport, Vettel crashed into Hamilton last year, Grosjean crashed out by himself this year - both while behind a safety car !!