Ferrari UK Pulls Stradale from GT3 Twin test | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Ferrari UK Pulls Stradale from GT3 Twin test

Discussion in '360/430' started by 355fiorano, Dec 3, 2003.

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  1. Stickanddice

    Stickanddice Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2002
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    #26 Stickanddice, Dec 3, 2003
    Not to be abrasive, but does this really matter? Even a mint/properly broken in 360 would get creamed by a GT. They succeeded in beating out what they set out to beat.

    As for magazines taking money from manufacturers to give them superior rankings...

    Mostly a myth, but I don't have a view of all magazines so I can't generally comment. I have done marketing business with some of these publications in the past. I am now doing business with the other side, the car manufacturers.

    I also don't subscribe to the school of thought of car A is better in every sense over car B, but as a journalist I have to say I prefer car B because its a Ferrari type of verdicts. Once you have the means to play this game you want the best, period. The Ferrari myth is fantastic and all, but when its all said and done, there are better cars out there. Looks and sound are personal choices. For example I love the look of the Murcielago but don't like the sound. You really want a Ferrari? Get an early 60s or earlier vintage car and you're untouchable.

    Cheers
     
  2. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #27 Aircon, Dec 3, 2003
    I was thinking the same thing...I'd have told Ferrari to get lost.

    I dynod my old F40 years ago, and found it to be almost exactly what the factory quoted. What did you find?

    Peter
     
  3. 355fiorano

    355fiorano Formula Junior

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    #28 355fiorano, Dec 3, 2003
    I wander too ... any logical person would have told them to get lost so there must be something material they can bargain with. THe things that do spring to mind are waiting lists e.g. if he had a deposit for the new 360 or if he is a good customer, the may be giving him perks like loan cars etc which they could pull. Whatever happened, there was a button, they pushed it and it worked !
     
  4. JaguarXJ6

    JaguarXJ6 F1 Veteran

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    #29 JaguarXJ6, Dec 3, 2003
    Clax, you sure have an axe to grind, don't you?

    Its 500rwhp, at the wheels, not total, so you can imagine what the real fwhp and torque really are. Or are you that blind?

    Lets see, someone knows the developers and has a GT40, speaks to these people, and you have to go off and blast Ford for tweaking the car when they're trying to sandbag how good they are making it. You can't discount that.

    Brilliant, bravo, congratulations! This thread is about the Stradale and the GT3. I read the article, three times, that choose the Stradale in Autocar. In Pagani's defense, their car couldn't finish or you probably would have seen it right up there tying for 2nd or finishing 1st.

    The GT2 is still "where its at" if its a Porsche. I'm not trying to attack you, but my god man! Yes, they're concealing the truth, not falsifying test results :)
     
  5. Clax

    Clax Formula 3

    Oct 3, 2002
    1,611
    #30 Clax, Dec 3, 2003
    I have no axe to grind. Are you telling me that auto manufacturers don't dial-in their test cars before sending them to the car mags? Are you that blind?

    I realize that the article is about the Stradale and GT3. My posts are simply to illustrate that Ferrari (and other manufacturers) want to hand-pick the test cars, to ensure that they are getting the most favorable results. This fact is not exclusive to Ford, Ferrari, or any other manufacturer. If you cannot see this, then you are the one who is blind.
     
  6. JaguarXJ6

    JaguarXJ6 F1 Veteran

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    #31 JaguarXJ6, Dec 3, 2003
    Nope, of course they do. Unless dyno'ed and tested, its all claims. If Jim had not volunteered information, and he's a reliable source, the big results that caused the stir recently, specifically regarding the Ford GT, are pointless to debate, but it still continues despite one of the best 'eyewitnesses' we're going to get without working for Ford.

    On the other side of the coin, the most modern example of overquoting a car's output that I know of is the S-Type R, another Ford product at the center of controversy. Its not 400bhp from a 4.2L V8, its the same powertrain as the XKR and the new XJR, 390bhp and 390-395lbs torque on a good day, up from 370bhp from the 4.0L unit with the same amount of torque peak.
     
  7. Ontogenetik

    Ontogenetik Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
    149
    #32 Ontogenetik, Dec 4, 2003
    >They succeeded in beating out what they set out to beat.

    What did they set out to beat?
    They cannot even reassemble what they set out to beat,
    ie. they cannot even comprehend what they disassembled.
    Surprising? Not exactly. One cannot reverse engineer Italy, nor the US for that matter.

    On a race track one may not care what marque one is driving, so long as performance is adequate.
    On the street Ferrari vs. Ford, Italian made vs. American made ...

    Ferrari's principal value lies in -> Ferrari
    Ford's principal value lies in selling cars / being useful.




    >Quote:
    >------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >Originally Posted by Aircon
    >I was thinking the same thing...I'd have told Ferrari to get lost.
    >------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    >I wander too ... any logical person would have told them to get lost so there
    >must be something material they can bargain with.

    The owner of a car (or any other purchased product) owns the car that s/he has purchased,
    s/he does not own the rights to that model.

    The private car would have represented all 360's not _a_ 360.
    Ferrari did the correct thing, although it should not even have had to intervene.
    Magazines should not be testing private cars if the model is still in production.

    Exceptions are if the factory explicitly supplies such a car, and/or
    if an article focuses on the cars' owners, their superlative genes and driving skills, rather than the cars' qualities or lack thereof.
     
  8. Ontogenetik

    Ontogenetik Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
    149
    #33 Ontogenetik, Dec 4, 2003
    >They succeeded in beating out what they set out to beat.

    What did they set out to beat?
    They cannot even reassemble what they set out to beat,
    ie. they cannot even comprehend what they disassembled.
    Surprising? Not exactly. One cannot reverse engineer Italy, nor the US for that matter.

    On a race track one may not care what marque what is driving, so long as performance is adequate.
    On the street Ferrari vs. Ford, Italian made vs. American made ...

    Ferrari's principal value lies in -> Ferrari
    Ford's principal value lies in selling cars and being useful.




    >Quote:
    >------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >Originally Posted by Aircon
    >I was thinking the same thing...I'd have told Ferrari to get lost.
    >------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    >I wander too ... any logical person would have told them to get lost so there
    >must be something material they can bargain with.

    The owner of a car (or any other purchased product) owns the car that s/he has purchased,
    s/he does not own the rights to that model.

    The private car would have represented all 360's not _a_ 360.
    Ferrari did the correct thing, although it should not even have had to intervene.
    Magazines should not be testing private cars if the model is still in production.

    Exceptions are if the factory explicitly supplies such a car, or
    if an article focuses on the cars' owners, and their superlative genes,
    rather than the cars' qualities or lack thereof.
     
  9. 355fiorano

    355fiorano Formula Junior

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    #34 355fiorano, Dec 4, 2003
    I don't necessarily agree with you, as you are taking a few liberal assumptions in your interpretation.

    1) No one mentioned that a ferrari owner owns any rights over and above the right to his own property i.e the car in this case. Its a similar situation with toothpaste or any other product. Your point is not pertinent.
    2) It depends what you mean by representative. They are only testing one car at a time. It is a small sample of the production. THere are 2 assumptions here a) If the production yields cars of significantly differing characteristics then the test is not representative based on a single observation (i.e. one car) b) If there are minimal differences between the cars in production, then there should be no harm in choosing a customer car vs a factory supplied car, as the difference would be insignifficant. I beleive the latter to be perfectly logical and therefore magazines can test whatever car they like so long as it has not been tampered with. Their results should be the same.

    The fact of the matter is that most of the road tests, especially the comparison tests for new cars, are customer cars (at least I know this for the UK). Manufatures who try to control this practice raise suspiciaons as the the quality of their product and the originality of the cars they supply to the press. Ferrari should have nothing to fear on both counts so why did they object ?

    Philip
     
  10. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    #35 Gary(SF), Dec 4, 2003
    Not true for the US. Virtually always factory-provided. The Enzo R&T tested a few months ago was privately owned, the only recent exception I can think of off-hand.

    Gary
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #36 Napolis, Dec 4, 2003
    You are wrong, Wm's Barchetta 550; F50, F40, McLaren F1, I could go on. R&T, C&D have tested customers cars. Consumers Union buy's ALL the cars they test from dealers anom.
     
  12. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    #37 Gary(SF), Dec 4, 2003
    All VERY small production numbers, like the Enzo. Name a U.S. test of a normal-volume car that was privately owned, and if you can, it'll be an exception to the norm. Even the relatively small-volume cars like the 360 are factory-supplied. I can understand magazines having to go to private sources for Enzos and McLarens.

    The comment I was responding to was "most of the road tests, especially the comparison tests for new cars, are customer cars", and I don't think that is true in the U.S.

    Consumers Union is a special case, we're talking about enthusiast magazines here, aren't we?

    Gary
     
  13. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #38 Napolis, Dec 4, 2003
    The cars Consumer Union tests are not supplied by mfg's. Last time I looked they tested some high volumme cars. IMHO this is the only way to insure that a tested car is similar to one one can buy.
    The fact remains that the GT 40 blew the F cars away 36 years ago, The Ford GT blows the CS away today, and unless the next gen mid priced F car gets some more grunt the next gen Ford GT will blow that one away too.
     
  14. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

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    #39 Guibo, Dec 4, 2003
    Are you guys quite sure it was a customer car? Because it had the regular Ferrari press car license plate: "DTM 13"

    Here, take a look:
    http://speed.*************/boardpics/2003-11-3/1760158-rabbitl1a.jpg

    And compare it with:
    http://www.roadandtrack.com/images/rt_images/2001/july/2001_07_ferrari_360_spider_top.jpg

    "DTM 13" has appeared on numerous Ferrari press cars, in the United States. Among them:

    C&D 12/02: 575M
    11/99: 360 Modena F1

    R&T 3/00: 456M GTA
    7/98: F355 F1
    1/01: 360 Modena
     
  15. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran

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    #40 Mark(study), Dec 4, 2003
     
  16. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

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    #41 Guibo, Dec 4, 2003
    As far as I know, Ford never got hold of a CS. Only the standard 360 Modena. Which makes sense, because the CS has only very recently been released (and this is the first instrumented testing of the CS I've seen in any US publication), long after Ford would have applied what they learned from picking apart their Ferrari specimen.

    The November issue of Evo has a driving impression, of the GT and a yellow 360 (not CS) at Laguna Seca. The text indicates Ford provided more than one 360 Modena for the press to compare with the GT during this session. (The Ferrari's plate isn't visible in the article.)
     
  17. Lloyd

    Lloyd F1 Rookie

    Aug 25, 2001
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    #42 Lloyd, Dec 4, 2003
    Didn't Ferrari do the same thing when the F50 came out? I recall reading somewhere at the time that Ferrari pressured owners of F50s not to submit them to magazine testing, which I thought at the time some speculated was because the F50 did not have the performance of the F40. If I remember correctly when the normal buyer purchased an F50, Ferrari retained the title for the first year or two similar to a lease in order to prevent owners from turning them over for a quick profit. Ferrari's retention of the title also was perceived to give Ferrari even more leverage over the purchaser than even the threat of taking them off the A list if they failed to cooperate.
     
  18. docapl

    docapl Formula Junior

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    #43 docapl, Dec 5, 2003
    Perhaps this "rebuilding" of the Modena's and the "tuning" of the GT's explains the 5 sec difference in lap times at Laguna.
     
  19. teflon

    teflon Formula Junior

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    #44 teflon, Dec 5, 2003
    The F50 was purchased on a 2 yr. lease w/the option to buy at the end of that period. There was word that you would no longer be a preferred customer if you allowed any magazine to test the car. To a lot of Ferrari owners, that is *very* important.

    C&D contacted several owners who initially agreed to allow the use of their car. Every one of them backed out when it was test time. So C&D used what they claimed was the only privately owned F50 at the time. This particular car was not a driver (it was on display in the owner's race team hq) and had not even received a proper break-in when it was tested. The mag failed to mention that this might have negatively impacted its test times.

    I have the magazine, but I cannot get to it any time soon. What I remember from the test was that the F50 was quicker to 60, due to traction problems w/the F40, but the F40 caught up and took the lead before the end of the 1/4mi.

    Greg A
     
  20. Clax

    Clax Formula 3

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    #45 Clax, Dec 5, 2003
    From what I know from Ford & Ferrari sources, Ford dismantled & rebuilt 2 360's (that I know of). A friend of mine that is a Ferrari tech was involved in the rebuild process of the 2 cars. Of course, it's possible that there were others, but those are 2 that I know of.
     
  21. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    #46 Gary(SF), Dec 5, 2003
    Well, I'm repeating myself from my last post, but CR is a special case and not an enthusiast magazine, altho I do agree that the only way to get an unbiased test is to go in blind and buy a car. I don't believe we're going to see R&T or C&D doing that too much, however. I stand by my comments that most road tests by US enthusiast mags are provided by manufacturer, apparently unlike Europe, which is where we started with this.

    Gary
     
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