FERRARI VS TURBO

It comes down to emissions & fines - the turbo provides equal performance on a more efficient and green platform. In terms of experience, I agree it will be sad to see the end of the normal aspirated car; just like the gated shifter.

For now, Lambo / Audi's V10 and V8s from Ford, GM, and few others are holding out. But for how long?

 

Ordered one of the last, possibly even THE last NA Cayman S with a manual for a semi-DD. Initially was looking into a non-vintage to make my Mom and Jen happy that I had something safer than my preferred old-school, non-computerized nanny stuff to drive regularly, and Bullfighter's incident snapped me in that direction pretty hard.
Tried several potentials, but really liked the Cayman, but missed the GT4, and the GTS order windows. The immediacy hit when I was told that the new ones were "more powerful turbo 4s", and would I like to try one, since the Boxster had already switched over, and were on the lot. The (anti-)selling point for me: "You can barely notice the turbo lag"

Couldn't get several of the few options I wanted, because they had already started switching production over to the new version, and they stopped all orders for the 981 a couple of days later.
Mine doesn't have "barely noticeable turbo lag". It has no turbos to lag. I know what it's going to do, and exactly when.
It's sad - Even Porsche appears to have lost the plot.

 

I think the real answer is both. Why limit yourself, no pun intended?

I am shopping 355/430 spiders to compliment my Supra. Not for speed, but for sound. A high rev'ing Italian spider when I want something equally nimble, with no roof and slower.

People get obsessed with power with forced induction motors, but the real driving pleasure is about how big a tent you can produce from when you make power until you reach redline.

I don't know of any Italian motor that can be modified to 10K redline with forced induction. I shudder to think what that would cost. For my favorite car? $15K all in making power from 3,500rpm to 10K.

High rev'ing and forced induction are not mutually exclusive. 8K redline cars can be simpatico.

Tunnels: https://youtu.be/erQ_OKx1mUU?t=1m40s (limited to 6,500rpm-7K due to temps and traction, squirly that cold before dawn)
2nd-3rd gear: https://youtu.be/nrdBfnPTKo4

Good night, Frau Blücher.

 

Agreed on taking a high rpm great sounding naturally aspirated Ferrari over a more powerful turbocharged one. Just prefer the driving characteristics.

High revving and forced induction is not mutually exclusive but a Supra that turns to 10k probably doesn't make peak torque until 7500 and will be very soft below 6000. (some better some worse for sure but that is a close generalization)

Love those cars and the 2JZ is legendary but there's always a trade off

If I had one I would probably go high compression, E85 and a single 35R just to make something super responsive. (at the cost of max power and rpm potential)

 

I agree with you, except on the powerband. You won't lose 3000rpm worth of peak torque with an increase in redline. Again, you are thinking of cars strapped to a huge turbo that doesn't see peak power until 5500rpm or higher and adjusting peak from than when a street built car made to drive is making peak torque at 3500rpm and power at 5K. Those big cars are still producing 500-600 torque around 4K rpm so I wouldn't say anemic rather built for a specific purpose less fun outside of a straight line.

Btw, I have a GT35R with a modified housing, F1 manifold and straight through exhaust with muffler only. Stock valve train limit set at 8K rpm. Springs, retainers, cam, fuel for E85, retune will bump power/torque to 9K redline and lose no drivability. Modifying to 10K is possible but becomes a bragging right any how.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

Agree with most of what you said, just saying if you have a combo that's still making power at 10k it's probably not super responsive down low.

I'm always open to be proven wrong by dyno results but even then, it's easy to get them to spool against the brake with a ton of heat to show higher torque at a lower rpm vs what you will actually see on the street in lower gears/less load.

Your combo sounds perfect for a street car.

 

The future is hybrid, the even more distant future is 100% electric. With the electric/NA hybrids you can potentially meet emissions requirements and at the same time keep the sound and responsiveness of NA engines. I believe we are on one of the last few years of NA supercars, with lambo possibly being the last one out. It may be tempting for some manufacturers to build electric/turbo hybrids, but hopefully we get the electric/NAs from Ferrari/Lambo/McLaren/Porsche etc.

 

Don't forget about electric turbos, that are on their way. These will spool up much faster, since they do not entirely rely on exhaust. They will no doubt all but eliminate any traces of turbo lag and further usher the NA engines out.

Good point about hybrid / NA engines. However, it will probably come down to costs. Hybrids can be expensive, heavy, and run too hot for intense driving, such as track work. Tesla do not do well on track and often go into safe mode, due to over heating within the batteries.

 

The F12 is one of the best sounding motors. I fell in love with it the moment I heard it once it was announced. Alas, I can only experience them through videos as they are out of my budget nor fit for the kind of driving I do.

While it's a shame they aren't suitable for being paired with a 6spd, they more than make up for it in V12 ferocity that none of the front late model Ferrari's match. It's at the top of many folks favorite late model car because of that glorious sound. I would take an F12 over a 550/575 6spd purely because of that sound.

There are a lot of mechanical things happening with a lower compression turbo motor and I don't think your example of saying it's basically just an NA motor with more power from turbos is accurate.

To use a Ferrari example, would you say the Tipo 106 from the 308 is the same as the Tipo F120 from the F40? Same era, same displacement, same cylinders, also rear engined. Turbo motors sometimes require a huge leap in design even in the same engine family for the added complexity.

Underground Racing (UGR) will happily sell you a turbo kit for your stock engine, but to do it right requires the extra $50K in upgrades. You could give the factory that extra money from the onset to do it with reliability as part of the design like the 911 Turbo vs. Carrera or Ferrari has done with the F488 vs. F458. Same engine family, but lots of mechanical differences.

I will go on record with many others to say that the way the F488 sounds to me is terrible and Ferrari ruined a great thing chasing performance over the F458, which the F458 with the right headers and exhaust sounds fantastic. That's why it's right up alongside the F355 for me.

To me, NA and turbos are yin and yang. Every car I own is a turbo and why I am so interested in this thread. I think it's well past my time to become an owner, introduce a little balance and practice what I preach.

 

I believe the future for exotic cars will be ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGING.

The supercharger will power high speed turbines to push in more air and do it in an intelligent way to maximize power or fuel economy. The electric superchargers will be powered by batteries similar to hybrid. The supercharger may not have to work all the time. It might be used only under peak acceleration and then shut off.

This to me has several advantages. 1) it should be lighter than a complete separate hybrid system. And the battery pack may be less. 2) You get the power off a supercharger but without a waste of HP or back pressure from a Turbo 3) it does not effect the exhaust note because it's in the intake and not the exhaust. 4) because the electric motors can have software control, it can be highly tunable for efficiency or power. 5) no turbo lag. The electric motors have peak torque at anytime you put power to them. No waiting for turbos to spool up. They may spool up while your foot is still on the brake!

Imagine you could take the standard 458 engine running to 9 grand and get another 150-200 hp and more torque out of it just by adding 2 electric superchargers in the intake of the engine without burning any fuel or robbing HP to power the superchargers. Pretty awesome.

See... I solved the problem!

 

Not sure I agree. I see a few issues and one simple flaw.

The flaw is this. Why would one make the power twice when you can make it once? If you make an electric compressor, you will still need somewhere between 150-200 hp to make any real useful boost. These things take a huge amount of power to drive. So in essence, First you have to make the electric motor turn, then you have to compress the air so it can be used to make actual propulsion energy. A good compressor is maybe 92 % efficient at best? Then you need to convert that compressed air into propulsion energy in the combustion engine. Why not just bolt that electric power directly to the wheels or crank so you won't lose energy along the way?

As for issues? Well there's the size of the electric motor and how to properly mount that on the compressor close to the intake. And the issue of a hybrid system is basically the same. You need power on tap - that goes for both types of systems. This means you need the same battery pack. Another issue is this. What do you do when you run out of battery? What about re-gen? The electric motors are part of what regenerates the power. But if your electric motor is mounted somewhere on the intake and does not have direct connection to any drive train part, you'll have to make a separate re-gen system, that will not only weigh more, but also create parasitic loss when not in use. The latter will be the case for the electric motors connected to the drive train as well, but their efficiency will be greater as they are dual purpose. What about cooling? If you place the electric motors away form the engine, it will take less power to cool unlike an electric motor mounted in the engine bay close to the hot engine.

Electric compressors? Nope, I don't see it.

 

Agree completely

 

The way I view internal combustion engines is if the best and brightest could think of it in WW2 you would have seen it then.
Back when building engines was not just for marketing and EPA concerns but saving your civilisation.
Granted computers have changed the game but air fuel and spark are still the same.

The exhaust gas turbo is still the most efficient way to get cheap reliable HP.

 

Other advances are coming as well, such as cam-less engines.
The Camless Engine of the Future Is Almost Ready for the Real World

 

Current F1 engines use an electric compressor--but just to spool the compressor up, and then use the natural exhaust gasses to power the turbines. Then when the engine is running at peak boost, the electric motor is switched into an electric generator, sucking power out of the exhaust gasses and delivering the power to the other motor connected to the drive shafts.

Electric compressors--no
Electric compressor spool up devices--yes
Electric compressor wastegate--yes.

 

I see a decent probability that the perceived advantage of turbo engines wrt emissions and fuel consumptions is over.

Realistic test cycles will come after VWgate and show a different picture.

Not that this would make a v12 efficient, but the difference between a smaller turbo and a large NA engine will shrink.

 

Turbocharger is an air compressor that works with wasted gases, so it gives free power to the engine. Or more power, if you prefer: Basically it's just that. It works an it's the future of all combustion sport engines. F40 came almost 30 years ago!

Ciao.

 

I think the most efficient fossil fuel-based will be turbo diesel-electric engines/generator without a transmission. The electricity will power the motors at each wheel similar to a diesel-electric train. Freight trains get nearly 500 miles per gallon per ton of freight with that setup plus the low rolling friction and drafting given small cross sectional area for the number of cars pulled...

But maybe we'll have a system of electric cars in the future without batteries. Just have it hooked up to overhead wires to power the car like electric trains lol.

 

I just learned that a Formula 1 engine is a "low hp engine"... This, of course, is incorrect

Are you joking, Larry? do you think that everyone can do a Top engine, NA or aspirated?
Just great engine makers can do great Engines, Turbocharged or Natural aspirated.

488 engine has 172 hp per liter, no lag, top end power too and it's detuned by factory at just 670 hp to avoid a commercial problem to the F12 engine: it has 750 Hp just if you turn it up to its natural power, means 192 hp per liter, and with almost no lag... not bad!

Audi means Porsche: they can do great engines, trust me, they aren't home made... Did you know that the Lamborghini Huracan engine is made by Audi? it's not a bad engine at all...

Honda S2000 2 liters NA engine (17 years ago...) already had 120 hp per liter: same period Ferrari 3,6 liters 360 engine had less specific power, "just" 111 hp per liter... Not only Ferrari can do screamer high revs high specific power engines.

3.9 litres 488 engine outperforms the 458 speciale 4.5 liters engine and still sounds great: for me it's enough.

ciao

 

No, as mentioned it is not free power. The increased backpressure in the cylinders is where the stored energy (fuel) is spent.

However, a lameass engine playing possum when the turbo is not in use at all is awesome for unrealistic fuel consumption tests. Just program the ECU, gas pedal and transmission to blast right through the turbo without waking it up. For the driving conditions in the test. That's where the unrealistic consumption estimates come from.

I also don't think it is fair to bash the government too much on this. These tests have broad scope, they need to be simple and non-attackable by the manufacturer's lawyers and they have been updated every now and then already.

The VW scandal will give governments an excuse to introduce more realistic tests (overcoming the legal waffling with public opinion)...

... and that is where I think turbo engines will look less good very soon. That is why I think that natural aspiration for premium cars will see a bit of a comeback.