A recent post by Rifledriver got me thinking. Here's the post: which was follwed by this from ernie: So, who's right here, Rifledriver or ernie, or some position in between. Do we eat our young, or simply "out" overcharging mechanics? Or, do we call 'em as we see 'em, and let the chips fall where they may. (For reference, the exchange occured here.http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61228)
I was very disappointed to see Rifledriver's post - he has been a outstanding contributor of this board and has been for a great source of information and technical advice. I observe a lot of posts quoting outrageous hours and billing costs...more than what I know I've paid to either the dealer or independent. I can see how Rifledriver feels the way that he does. I think it important to recognize that many of these quotes are purely anecdotal....usually started with "I heard" or "a friend of mine" and many times not even by people who own 360's. Case in point, the F1 pump just went out on my 360 Modena. I wasn't sure it if it was the clutch or the pump that died on me. I went to a Poker Run the next day without the car so my whoes were obvious. Although I believe the advice I got from many of the fellow ferrari owners was of good intention, I had people saying "oh....ooooh...an F1 pump. That's going to cost a fortune." I even had someone say "$10k". When all was said and done, it was $1400 bucks. I can also see Ernie's points...but again, I have to wonder, is his observation based upon people posting anecdotal stories or an actual mechanic on this board quoting an outrageous price? Maybe we need to have people post their invoice with todays paper like we ask potential trolls to the same. LOL. I don't think comparing a do it yourself price vs. a certified mechanic price is a fair comparison. There are many of us that don't have the ability/time wherewithall to do it ourselves. For us, we expect a fair and competitive price among the mechanics. I expect to pay more than doing it myself (isn't that true with most DIY projects - I can't remember the last time I ironed my own shirt...I'd probably save hundred of $$!) I am not sure how to regain this boards credibility among the technical arena...but I know that the technical forum and it's experts is one of the main reasons why I frequent this board.
I can only speak for the Chicago section where I'd say people are taking the high road and give the mechanics the benefit of the doubt. One dealer has such a poor reputation, that nobody takes that ones side, but other than that, I think we're a rather non abrasive bunch. After all it is a small club and everybody knows pretty much everybody.
"I have never seen auto industry bashing like I see here combined with the rapid negative judgements backed by little or no information (see item A). I see every day good and bad mechanics, shops and manufacturers. I also see good and bad lawyers, doctors, and garbagemen." I thought this was dead on right. In a small world that's supposed to be fun - at least IMO - they're by no means a majority, but there sure are a lot of unhappy, bitter, litigious folks who can't stay away. Unhappy because they can't get a car or otherwise were not accorded the respect to which they feel entitled; unhappy because the car they got has some problem or doesn't do what they hoped; unhappy that they can't sell the car for enough money; and so on. I've never understood it. In years of racing and owning a few cars, I've met dealership mechanics and race prep shop mechanics, good and bad - but most, pretty good. We may have a better local dealer than most, but I know the guys who work on my Ferraris and I trust their work. I think people buy these cars believing that, "for $200k, it better be perfect." Well, it isn't. It is what it is. I think it's worth every penny and, if I didn't feel that way, I'd drive something else.
The internet levels the playing field. Without it and mostly FChat, i would not own a Ferrari. Spent too much time 20 years ago working on my Fiat X1/9s having no clue sometimes what i was doing, to revisit that with a much more expensive toy.
I'm a shade tree mechanic for sure, and I have a really bad taste in my mouth from the so-called "expert" I used to take my car to. It was amazing the low quality of work he did, and wouldn't always even stand behind it. So I have my own prejudices. I read over and over here how people have a problem with their Ferraris and their mechanic starts haphazardly replacing parts until it goes away. This gets very expensive indeed! There ARE some posts about how great a few mechanics are. They thoughtfully diagnose the problem, test it and more often than not fix it the first time. These guys are few and far between so if you find one, treat them well! Those guys are given the credit they deserve. There are a few guys on line here that I would take my car to in a heartbeat. They have worked on Ferraris for years and I am impressed with how they can diagnose things over the internet without even seeing the car! This only comes from experience. Plus they stand behind their work. The attitude Rifledriver expresses in my opinion stems from the vast number of cummy mechanics out there; not an unfair attitude of this group. We don't eat children for lunch; we point out all the mistakes the so called experts make! We are the free press...we call BS when we see it. Most of the advice here, even from guys like me who is NO expert, I think is thoughtful and logical even if it's wrong. People throw out ideas and it's up to the owner to decide what's best for him to persue. If he doesn't want, or can't, sift through the different ideas himself, well his local mechanic is still there for him to take his car to. Armed with several opinions, he will maybe be able to communicate with his mechanic more effectively and maybe help him get to the heart of the matter faster. Ken
I believe, like in any profession, there are good,bad and ugly practioners. No industry is exempt from these types....because as human beings, we come in each type. That being said, how can we "judge" anyone other then directly by their own words or actions? Rather than paint a broad stroke condeming all within a certain group...why not base your opinion upon observed behaviour, actions or speech? This seems to me to be the only "fair" way of proceeding to judge someone, if in fact, we should be judgeing someone or some industry at all. As a further comment, I have found throughout my life that people are more likely to speak out when they feel as if they have been wronged, and less likely to speak out when they feel they have been benefited. It seems its easier to complain about something than to be grateful....and this leads to a disproportionate amount of "I got screwed" posts, as opposed to "I got treated great" posts. If only people were as quick to praise as they were to gripe, I believe these types of posts would be more evenly weighted. Just my $0.02 worth, Goldy
You miss the point, but that is my fault, it was not well made. My point really extends to a general and pervasive aura here "Blame the mechanic or shop first". There have been many stories well told, detailed, and documented here about the abuses of repair shops and I am usually one of the most vocal in the condemnation of them. But there are also many that look to be a case of misunderstanding, poor comunication or who knows what because we are obviously not getting the whole (and in almost every case, only half) of the story. But that never stops this crowd from instituting mob mentality and demonizing the entire industry. There have been in my history of observing and participating here, many (in the business) well known and respected people who have come to attempt to elevate the quality of the advice and technical information only to be driven off in much the same way as I. Dave Helm and I have both in the last year or so been offerd a chance to work together for both Forza and Prancing Horse Magazines. We instead spent our time here feeling it would serve the same purpose, reach a wide audience and help the Ferrari community. Speaking for myself, it has not been done for personal aggrandizement, my ego does not need the nourishment. It does not benefit my business, I have no desire to make it bigger and I have all I can handle now. Most of the people in this business that are really good at it are good, honest, hard working people many of whom I consider friends yet I come here every day to see them slandered and wrongly accused in many cases by the very people we are trying to help. I will do so no more.
Sorry to hear you say that, I have always found your answers and posts to be most helpful. Its a shame that a few "bitter" apples can ruin it for the bunch, but I can hardly blame you for your sentiments...there does seem to be a lot of vague mechanic bashing on this site, at least as observed by me during this last year or so I have been enjoying this forum. Your insights and experience will be sorely missed, and Im sure Im not the only one who feels that way.Best of luck in your future endevours, Goldy
Rifle, I here you........... What do you think about having a Rossa section for questions to mechanics? Then the masses won't see or be able to comment. Just thinking of your concerns.
Two of the jobs I have held in the automotive portion of my working life have been as Quality Control Inspector for dealerships. I can say this from extensive, personal experience: The Flat Rate system of charging customers and paying mechanics breeds bad work habits, poorly maintained cars, and unhappy owners. I could relate hundreds of stories. The same mechanic, over and over and over, doing front and rear alignments in 20 minutes, getting paid for 90 minutes, and not checking the tire pressures because it takes too long. Oil change services where the new oil is dumped all over the engine and not cleaned up - takes too long. "We do a 50 point inspection on all of our used cars" - well, we do about 20 of them, actually. Takes too long. The Service Manager kept a big chart on the wall, noting which mechanics were the flat rate leaders. They were the most productive. They made the most money, for the shop and for themselves. And I wouldn't let them touch my own cars. If you've found a good mechanic, let people know. Give him the repeat business. Send him new customers. Treat him with respect. Give him the time to do a proper job. If your mechanic is just a "flat rate gravy grabber", take your business to another shop, and let the manager know that you are leaving and why you are leaving. And in answer to the subject of this thread, there is probably too much bad mouthing of mechanics as a profession. But I've seen a lot of good mechanics do bad work because they are rewarded for it.
What can we say, there are good and bad in all walks of life. Unfortuntately it's the bad ones that ruin it for the good. It does seem like there are an inordinate amount of stories(in the F world especially) whereby an inexperienced buyer or owner has been taken advantage of by a seasoned technician. It's just like anything though whereby knowledge is power and that's why we congregate here to gain more knowledge so that we can stay on top of things. A guy like Rifledriver is unfortunately going to be a bit of a lightning rod for the people who have been mistreated. Anyway hopefully Rifledriver doesn't take it too personally because his expertise is valued here in this community.
Rifledriver. How could I miss your point by quoting you? I've asked for, and gotten, a lot of good advice on Fchat, from a host of cooperative people. Some are professional mechanics, some are well trained amateurs, and some are like me, good listeners who take copious notes and can regurgitate advice they have previously received. I don't have a beef with you, or any other mechanic I've ever dealt with here on Fchat (save one guy). I just felt that most of the folks here appreciated the kinds of advice doled out, and were not too quick to jump all over mechanics at all. Certainly there are posts that bash mechanics, along with presidents, countries, and individual members. That's kind of the nature of the anonomous post. It lets you say stuff that sometimes is better left unsaid. I have always appreciated the advice given, and have not once *****ed about a repair bill that I have received in my +-3 years of ownership of a Ferrari. At leat not publicly. It's a shame that you perceive this community as negative. I think it's generally a very positive place that has a helpful spirit, not one of anger or spitefullness. That's what I was aiming at. A look at our perceptions, and maybe an adjustment of attitudes to look for the 80% good, not the 20% bad, that goes on here. Peace, DM
The fact is that FerrariChat.com users are more informed than those that aren't. Our group is growing into a pretty significant number where the diversity of our membership can look at issues from every angle. I hope and I think in most cases that where things end up is where they should. If a shop is good hopefully comes out in the long run. I think we're all smart enough to know the word of one doesn't mean much, but when you get input from a dozen customers and others in the industry, then you will be "informed" and can make your own decision. If a user makes a negative post about their experience with a company, I always encourage the target to publicly respond. Many times the user that started it will be the one looking bad after the facts come out. Other times you get a balance of opinions and no one is either totally right or wrong. If you are a good shop, then FerrariChat.com can be your goldmine. Just look at the growth of Norwoods and here is just one of the many positive threads just posted... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65082
I do want to chime in, since I'm one of those "bashers" from time to time. In no way do I want to discourage the pros from posting here and helping out with their insights. They shouldn't feel personally insulted when I bash their less than competent bretheren, and if they do I apologise. But I do think people need to demand a certain level of competence while returning the same courtesey to their mechanic. As was stated, you can get a cheapie belt change but don't go crying when the water pump gives out six months later and the bill is far larger than it would have been if the mechanic's advice to "take care of it now" hadn't been thought by the customer as trying to run up the bill with un-needed extras. Ken
I WILL HAVE TO AGREE WITH RIFLEDRIVER ON THIS ONE FOR THE MOST PART... I HAVE SOLD MANY 355/360 ALARM BATTERIES FOR THE BOSCH ALARM SYSTEM. I SELL THEM FOR 38.00 EACH AS OPPOSED FOR A FNA DEALER OR A INDEPENDENT SHOP CHARGING 600.00 TO 1000.00 TO CHANGE THE WHOLE ALARM SYSTEM.. I HAVE SOLD MANY, FRANCIS, STEPHEN S IN AUSTRAILA WILL CONTEST FOR ME.. I RECEIVED 2 PMS ABOUT HOW IM KILLING THE MARKET FOR THESE SHOPS TO MAKE MORE MONEY ON THE CUSTOMER.. MY PMS BACK TO THEM WERE, " GO **** YOURSELF" I HAVE ALOT OF CONTACTS AND LOVE TO SHARE THEM WITH ALL THE FERRARI BROTHERS AND SISTER (FRANCIS) BUT HAVE KEPT QUIET ABOUT IT I WAS ALSO BASHED FOR SELLING ALKALINE BATTERIES HERE FOR ABOUT MY COST TO HELP YOU GUYS OUT, NO MORE UNLESS I RECEIVE AN EMAIL OR PM..... BRUCE
I'm confused. From what you wrote seems like you would be against what Rifledriver said. You were on the consumers side by saving them $750 and it was the shop owners you told to **** off because they were greedy?
JUST BASICALLY SAYING ON AN OPEN PUBLIC CHAT BOARD AS YOURS, YOU CAN GET CRAP AND GET NO RESPECT FOR POSTING POSITVE,MONEY SAVING THINGS...AND THEN GET BASHED....NO CREDIT FOR BEING NICE IM PRIVATE NOW
You get ripped off when you don't do much research. Getting quotes from 2-3 places should give you better idea of market price. What Bruce does is his business, and shouldn't be blamed for selling cheaper. I gather some information from this board on many subjects, but use it as reference. After all, I believe what I see & hear myself. I see points Rifledriver & Arnie makes. If you see 1 thing from 2 different views, you'll see it differently. If I have some repair issues on my cars, I want to keep it as low as possible w/ the best result possible. Then again, repair providers must make money to keep running the business. If they all go out of biz, ultimately I'll be in trouble, too. What I hate most is those who don't pay even they recieved what they ordered or requested!!!
I always appreciate a mechanic who will tell me what I *should* get done, but more importantly what I DON'T need done. For example, in Hawaii I had this little independent MB mechanic from Germany who was honest, would take me under the car and show me exactly what was going on, and would say if I didn't need something urgently. He also had a lounge with chairs, fridge full of drinks, coffee tables and magazine racks, etc. *right next to the mechanic's bay.* You literally sat there (usually with another customer or two), having a free Coke (or Bud if you preferred) and saw your car being worked on. I would drive about an hour and twenty minutes at 5:30am to take my car to him, and it seemed his other customers were also very loyal. Also like that was the shop where tbakowsky works, which does exotics, British cars and Subarus. I went there several times last year while in Canada to have my maintenance done, and it was about 1 hour away, driving past 2 other Subaru dealers.
Disreputable shops prey upon ignorant owners. No one that gets gouged ever deserves it. However, an owner with a modicum of knowledge regarding the service or troubleshooting procedures can probably head off much of the gouging before it starts. The parts and service manuals should be considered required reading for any new owner. Dropping it off and saying "Fix it" is the same as telling them your bank account number. A resourceful owner or community, such as this one, is the disreputable shop's worst nightmare. The alarm battery is a good example.
That is exactly what happened. What one person assumed was a nice gesture by Bruce that in turn screwed them is totally wrong in my case. Although I paid $38 for the replacement batteries (thanks again Bruce!) I still paid over $225 in labor to an independent mechanic to install them. I'm not complaining - absolutely worth every penny since I still netted a savings of $250. I'm just saying that a shop DID make money in my case.
I think Tbakowsky is awesome, he saved me a big mistake on a car "that just needed a tuneup", yeah, if $20-30k is a tuneup. Not quite enough to justify moving to Ontario though. It is getting tougher to separate the wheat from the chaff with all the members - some of the quiet infrequent posters have huge experience where some of the loud and very frequent posters have no idea what they're talking about.
We're human. I am sure there are dishonest mechanics. Does this mean I lump a guy like Bill Pollard in this crowd simply because he bares the same title? Heck no. The bad makes you appreciate the good. The good survive and the bad do not. Unfortunately, some get screwed along the way. This site has been invaluable to me. Entertainment, knowledge and casual discussion. All for the price of two movie tickets. To those who are frustrated, I say this: Stick around and keep doing what you do. Dane (pretty prophetic, huh?.....Not )
