News

Ferraris current lineup obsolete ?

Discussion in '360/430' started by WILLIAM H, Apr 11, 2004.

  1. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
    34,891
    Victory Circle
    Full Name:
    HUBBSTER
    I was just looking through this months R&T and I hope Ferrari has something up its sleeve bcus the competition is getting ferocious. Aprt from the MB55SL, Corvette C6, Murcielago, Gallardo & Vanquish.

    AM & Lambo are now or just about to launch a Murcielago & Gallardo spyder & AM is going to release a Vanquish Volante.

    I think the Vanquish Volante is going to make AMs threat to Ferrari much worse

    The Murc & Gallardo spyder are both ganging up on the 360 Modena
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. F-passione

    F-passione Karting

    Mar 31, 2004
    173
    Orange County, CA
    So what. I'd rather invest(?) my money with a company that doesn't feel the need to always be keeping up with the Jones's and updating models. If Lambo's are so great with all their horse power etc., why is the new Gallardo selling for sticker or below?
     
  4. Victory

    Victory Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    410
    Ferrari has to have an overall rethink of their line-up. I think the Astons are going to be a bigger threat than the Gallardos. Ferrari is coming up with the 360 replacement and it will be cheaper than the Gallardo. I don't see much problem there. But the DB9 is one beautiful car and the driving impressions by Autocar journalist shows that it's as good as the 612 Scaglietti and for 50,000 pounds less. That's a big, big difference for someone to pay for a "name". Yes Ferrari has to be pricing themselves right, especially with their V12 models.
     
  5. labcars

    labcars Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2003
    1,531
    Phila. + Scottsdale
    William, William, William....I agree with you entirely, but don't you know that even raising the issue here leaves you open to being flamed, or even worse, ultimately banned. But, you're totally on point. Ferrari has to watch their six!
     
  6. Juice It

    Juice It F1 Rookie

    Sep 22, 2002
    3,233
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    What makes you think the 420 will be cheaper than the Gallardo? I would bet it will be a little more. The Vanquish volante will be awesome if it makes it to production and don't forget the sl65 with 605 HP. I think the Gallardo Convert will hurt the wait list for a Ferrari spider. The cars are not far enough apart in performance to make someone want to wait two years to get one. Since there will be other options I think the days of buying used spiders over market will be a thing of the past. Oh, can't forget about the Bentley Cont. Gt which will be coming out with the droptop after the coupe debuts.
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. absent

    absent F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa

    Nov 2, 2003
    8,445
    illinois
    Full Name:
    mark k.
    He admits,612 is faster ,bigger and in a different league.That he chose DB over it is only his personal opinion. Different cars for different needs (and people)
     
  9. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
    1,691
    SE England Yorkie
    Full Name:
    Andy
    I'm not sure that they need to do anything reactionary. They are the trend setters in this market and I don't see that changing imminently. Perhaps when Aston/Lambo etc get their next new models out (the ones after Gallardo, DB9, V8 Vantage etc) they may have a problem, but right now I doubt it too much.

    I wonder if there's a case, however, for repositioning say the 575 type line. Drop it in between 360/420 and the 612 and you would arguably have a more balanced line up. Add a proper big kahoonas sports model too, perhaps at or above 612 pricing and then sprinkle on F60/F70s etc to taste every now and then.

    What they really need to do, IMO, is have a very, very good think about styling and packaging trends. Forget the power war as it's facile. If they don't come up with models that stir the blood (power alone is not enough - look at the Gallardo), then they're in trouble.

    And whilst they may not give a monkey's chuff, I'll be puutting my money into a V8 Vantage unless the 420 or its successor is drop dead gorgeous.
     
  10. juicert

    juicert Rookie

    Mar 17, 2004
    46
    Uhmmm....why would an honest discussion of current car models, especially as it relates to _ferraris_ cause someone to be banned ?

    I would think the owner/runner of this forum would be insulted that someone would believe them to be so silly, intolerant and thin-skinned, etc. - clearly they are not.

    The original post was an intelligent one - not a troll or a flame, or even a ferrari bashing post - just a good thought provoking post.
     
  11. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,168
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    I really do think Ferrari line is just plain..well..dull. I think they need to get back to what Ferrari was. Race cars for the street. Cars that enthusists buy to drive and drive hard. Not just driven to Starbucks to show off in.
    Ferrari need another F-40 type of machine but make it a full production car. No fancy interiors, no fancy F1 gear boxes (sorry to those who like them) Just somthing that will scare the heck out of you, but leaves wanting more.

    I think thats what Ferrari used to be. Now there just too soft. If they want to play the softie game then well not much I can do, but I will always be a fan of the "real" Ferrari's. Not Enzo's (to me a rich fat mans wanna be Mike Shumacer<-sp? car) or 612's(geared toward checkered pant wearing licoln town car drivers).
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
    1,691
    SE England Yorkie
    Full Name:
    Andy
    Agree there. The 360CS is what we need more of. And why do we have to give a hoot about fitting 2 sets of golf clubs in a car? Use your Merc for going to the golf course. Take your proper car out when you want to do some proper driving.

    One point though - if the F1 on the CS is as good as I hear, then I wouldn't rule that out as an option.
     
  14. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,168
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
     
  15. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    I would disagree that its dull. Enzo, Stradale, 360, 550... all beautiful and exciting cars. However, they've certainly been around a long time! And in that sense, I suppose "dull" might apply. But, they are also at the end of the typical Ferrari cycle... Ferrari will be replacing the 360 and 550 in the next few years. Any car that's been around 5 or more years is not going to seem as "new and exciting" as the car that just came out.

    I think that's what they did with the Stradale... its the new F40 at reasonable pricing. The Enzo being the new F40 at supercar pricing.

    But that is race car technology for the street! As is carbon fiber brakes, aluminum space frames, and so on. Fancy yes... but racecars these days are pretty fancy. The Stradale doesn't even have a radio (standard).

    Or are you wanting "retro cars" rather than "racecars for the street"?


    But what if you want to haul ass down the California coastline, play golf at Pebble Beach, and then haul ass back. It would be a shame to take the Merc and leave the Ferrari in the garage just because you had no place to put a set of clubs. The CS ("what we need more of") holds two sets of golf clubs... why is that bad?
     
  16. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 1, 2002
    21,769
    Dixieland
    Full Name:
    Israel Beiteinu
    It seems most people are waiting for the F512M replacement.

    Not the 1,000,000 Enzo.

    A mid engine 12 cyl production street car.
     
  17. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 6, 2003
    22,326
    Las Vegas, NV
    Full Name:
    Ryan Alexander
    While I think the 550/575 is a sleek, beautiful car, I hope that the 575 replacement is a little less subtle and a little more aggressive looking - and has a barebones GTC or Stradale edition.

    Overall I think that Ferrari's biggest problems in terms of performance could be solved by a little more displacement. I'd like to see some more exciting factory wheel options too.

    Ralph - I've also asked here why couldn't they cram a 575 engine into the 360 chassis (maybe a few inches longer wheelbase for weight balance) and slap a new set of panels on it?
     
  18. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,168
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    I must say I like that idea....I like it alot. (say like Johnny Carson)
     
  19. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    I think they need to create more visceral cars. As everyone moves towards heavier, chunky, your-grandmother-could-do-200mph-in-this kind of cars, ferrari should move in the exact opposite manner.

    Don't worry about 0-60 times or whatever the hell else they do (after all, why is that number important? because in theory, it represents the feeling you get FROM accelerating that fast, and is numerically comparable) - worry about making the car FEEL good.

    the 360 CS, from what I gather (never having driven one), is exactly that. Pared down, naughty fun. Sure, a Gallardo might run circles around it (not saying it does, but it might), but who do you think is having more fun? The guy continually understeering though his sleep-inducing Audi steering, or the guy with his tail hanging out just past apex, modulating the whole thing with his right ankle? Yeah...

    This is why drivers will take an F40 over an Enzo, and either over a Bugatti or what-have-you.

    I couldn't give a **** less about the fact that a 4 door sedan can crush a 550 to 200. Honestly. Good for you. And I hope you can play 4 dvds at the same time too! As numb as the 550 may be in comparison to some cars, it's still far more exhilirating to drive than your uber-train.

    I'm hopign Ferrari creates a super minicar, 140mph max speed, weighs nigh on nothing, etc. - basically an Exige and then some. In a more practical way, that's what the 360CS is.

    --Dan
     
  20. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    That I totally agree with. I'm hoping the Stradale was them testing the market acceptance of that product strategy... and that they will continue to push weight down, feel up, sound up, and so on.

    Also, I agree a rear mid-engine 12 would be nice... its time for that to cycle around again... in fact, given the 550 is older than the 360, I personally think that's what Ferrari most needs to replace next...

    Mix the best of the 512M, the Enzo, and the Stradale, into an exceptional mid-engine 12 that will make spending upper $2XX,000 seem wholly justified!

    JMHO.
     
  21. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
    34,891
    Victory Circle
    Full Name:
    HUBBSTER
    Personally I'd like to see a new F40, new Testarossa & a Testa Rossa for the road. How about a P4 inspired road car ?

    At least give us a 575 w a real convertible top
     
  22. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 6, 2003
    22,326
    Las Vegas, NV
    Full Name:
    Ryan Alexander
    How about the interior of the Enzo, with a 575 V12 wedged into a slightly extended 360 aluminum chassis, with a sharper body, for $265,000?
     
  23. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
    1,691
    SE England Yorkie
    Full Name:
    Andy
    We need more of where the CS is heading. "Back to Basics". I still think the CS is actually too big to use with proper vim. Certainly on European roads. And the reason for its size seems to have been dictated by the need to fit a couple of golf bags in it.

    I'm not saying that having the "2 sets of clubs" item as a design point should be completely eradicated, but it should not dictate the car, in either size or style, and it certainly shouldn't compromise it (which one could argue hasn't happened in the CS I suppose...).

    Perhaps the mode you noted is what the 612 is about? Or could be what the "mid-tier" model would do?

    All that said, trying to cover every function is a BIG mistake. So what would be the major problem in leaving the haulage of plaid trousers, brightly coloured jumpers and sticks to other vendors?

    I wonder what Enzo would have done. Hint - I suspect he would have told you where you could carry your golf clubs in no uncertain terms.
     
  24. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 1, 2002
    21,769
    Dixieland
    Full Name:
    Israel Beiteinu
    Keep in mind that in the U.S., P-car buyers are not exactly running to the
    dealers to find a GT-3. It was not difficult to find a dealer to spec out
    your new GT-3 at MSRP. Some P-car buyers on Rennlist are worried that
    they may not get the next gen 997 GT-3.


    In the U.S., it appears that a lot of buyers are unfortunately more
    interested in refinement and practicality.


    I do not know how the Stradale is doing in comparison to the 360 Modena ?
    I am talking about the difficulty in obtaining a 360CS from the F-car dealer.
    Did the U.S. get a watered down version to some degree ? I do not think
    the plexiglass windows could be ordered ? I am not sure. The GT-3 cannot be
    ordered with the hard-core sport seats. Forget about the GT-3RS.
     
  25. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    I'll take 3! :D

    --Dan
     
  26. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 13, 2001
    5,919
    Clearwater, FL
    Full Name:
    Mark

    Yep :)
     
  27. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

    Nov 2, 2003
    8,391
    West Coast
    Full Name:
    A
    I think that this post is an appropriate place to discuss the Ferrari commercial product line (as opposed to racing).

    Ferrari has a broader base of users today than 30 years ago. Its current customers are looking at a myriad of choices not available in the past.

    I, for one, love my 575M and enjoy it almost every day. There's not a lot I can think of to improve it relative to the use I make of it. It's a great touring coupe, with awesome power, great handling, wonderful fit and finish, a real trunk and the F1, IMVHO, has improved the car enormously.

    The 360 is really a nice little sports car, but having had one for several years now, I don't find it exciting to drive at all. It's almost too sterile a car with all of the visceral feeling that existed in the 355 taken out. It could certainly stand to be improved. The CS seems to be the factory's answer and if that is the case why sell any other version of a closed 360?

    The 360 Spider must be doing something right. Waiting lists for 18 months or more on a three year old model! Can't be lacking anything.

    The Enzo is a statement of technologicall expertise and whether you like its look or not it certainly fills the bill.

    The 612 is what it is - a four seater for those who need four seats, with all the performance you need in a car of that type.

    I'm sure that AM in particular will offer viable alternatives to Ferraris but the reality is that we can't be sure that Bill Ford won't pull the plug on AM when he feels stockholder pressure to be more profitable. Lambo will always be a pretty exciting brand, but without any history or mystique to back it up. It too will always be in the crosshairs of disgruntled VW stockholders who don't believe there is any lasting value in a so-so Italian brand that really can't create customer excitement with months long anticipation for cars to be built. Their newest model is already under pricing pressure and Murci's can be bought off the showroom floor in several dealerships.

    AMG's, and I love them for their sheer brute performance and ever so civilized demeanour, will never be iconic cars. AMG will sell as many cars as they can. Not a formula for long term value retention.

    Bentley with its Continental is a joke. It's simply a bunch of Audi and VW mechanicals bolted together in an English factory. It's as much a Bentley as a Yugo is a BMW. Why would anyone want it?

    American cars of any stripe - Corvettes, Vipers, Mustangs, even Caddy V series are just simply that - American cars. Nothing special there, until they turn fifty and some crazy people at Barrett-Jackson pay waaay too much for them. Steve Saleen may be the only American with a legitimate claim to building an exotic car.

    My conclusion. Ferrari is hardly under pressure, let alone in trouble.
    They are arrogant, Italian and not very organized (except in Formula 1 racing). We will keep on lusting after them, and buying the ones we can when we can. On that note, does anyone here know of a good F40, with between 3,000 and 6,000 miles that has been driven and serviced regularly. I really want one.....badly!
     
  28. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,440
    MO
    I say bring back the cheese grater 12s.....
     

Share This Page