Ferraris on Ethanol

Ethanol has higher octane than gasoline, but lower energy content per gallon. Cars that aren't Flex Fuel Vehicles (i.e. E85 compatible) can't run on more than 10% Ethanol as you have to inject more fuel to make the car run properly, so there isn't that much of a choice. You won't pull your 430, TR or 250GTO up to an E85 pump ever. Ethanol is corrosive and requires specially-selected fuel system components to survive. It's hardly the panacea that the press loves to paint it as.

 

In addition, ethanol requires almost as much energy to produce as it provides. I dont understand the fascination.

 

Tru Dat plus if you want to win at Le Mans you're going to need a bio/diesel as Audi will soon be proving.

 

Interesting... I thought I had heard it was a relatively straightforward conversion.

I know some BBs were converted to propane as way of meeting EPA regs in the early 80s-- any similarities?

 

In Colorado, we have had a 10% ethanol blend in most of the state for a number of years. My Ferraris over that time ranging from a 77 308 to a new 430 run fine on it although mileage does suffer slightly. The blend also reduces emissions, especailly CO which is the reason we have it here. In the 430 owners manual, it makes a point of saying they did not test for use with ethanol blends, no doubt to cover their butts.

Dave

 

There shouldn't be much performance feel difference between gasoline and E10; the fuel injection system will increase fueling via the O2 sensors. Things like tip-in enrichment may suffer mildly, but most calibrations should be robust to such these days. Older cars will run a little bit lean and this may be noticeable. Theoretically, one can tune a flex fuel vehicle to take advantage of the extra octane provided by E85, but I haven't seen any applications where this has actually been done.

On the topic of energy to produce vs energy released by a fuel, a new study comes out every few months, some saying it's a net energy drain (i.e. takes more energy to produce ethanol than it releases), some saying it's not. That tells me, without digging into the details, that it sure is close.

E10 will reduce your fuel economy by about 2.5%, so if you're in an area where it's not mandatory, figure that into your price comparisons. Shell, among others, advertises "Top Tier" gasoline which is required to be E10.

 

What do you think would be involved to convert a new car, say a 430, to run on E85?

How about an old carb car?

What do they do in Brazil with Ferraris?

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92182&highlight=e-85

 

You can still get "pure" gasoline in Brazil, I believe.
Of note is that the 22% gasohol in Brazil is used as a test benchmark for FFV components as it's supposedly more corrosive than E85. Not sure why, I just ran the tests, folks, didn't make 'em up!

As for how to convert, you'd need to make sure that every component that contacts fuel (from the gas tank to the valve seats) is compatible with ethanol. That usually means using stainless and properly formulated plastics in place of any number of carryover components. Automakers run dozens of sets of test parts in ethanol blended fuels for months to make sure they're safe. That's pumps, injectors, fuel pressure regulators, hoses, etc. Now that you've done that, you'd want to recalibrate the engine controller, but you might be able to get away with installing higher flow injectors and have "adequate" driveability. Remaining effects might not be noticeable to the common observer. Note that you are now locked into E85, you don't have a FFV, but an E85-only Ferrari.

 

no difference.

 

I don't know about performance but I talked to a guy who owns a BMW roadster (1996 model m3) which he has running off of ethanol and a fuel cell also in the trunk. He gets 45 or so to the gallon and e85 is cheaper than any regular gas here anyway. He said he hasn't noticed any decrease or increase in performance and several stations here sell e85.

I also spoke with a guy who has a vw tdi that runs on veggie oil-it smelled like it did to.

I'm considering a VW TDI myself or some other fuel efficient vehicles. For now I bum rides with friends or on the bus or I walk and bike. Sold my truck awhile back so..

 

OH, how true this is!!!

 

I'm calling BS on this one.
For OH SO MANY reasons!!! :O

 

10% ethanol is playing havoic with the marine industry. The moisture in ethanol causes organic acid buildup that attacks fuel tanks. The alcohol has also been rinsing all kinds of residue from transport trucks, storage tanks, and perhaps even fuel tanks that then gets into the fuel filters and causes a clog.

 

it takes something like 2 gallons of crude to produce 1 gallon of ethanol when you factor in the tractors and pesticides used before it is created. only reason its price is comparable to gas is its subsidized. id say stay away from it if you can

 

A friend of mine tells me that gas companies have been puttin small amounts of ethanol in regular gas for quite awhile during the summer months. That's why the gas companies claim the price goes up during the summer. Also they are claiming that converting to summer fuel is causing the current fuel shortage which is what is driving up the cost of fuel.

Personally, I don't trust the oil companies to tell the truth without a spin. I heard today the congress is gong to investigate the oil companies. I'm figuring that the oil companies will pay off the investigators who will then say that the oil companies are telling the truth.

Let me be the first to call "Bee Ess," on the results of the investigation. Although I see a chance for congress to raise taxes on the oil companies. Like that will do a lot of good. The extra cost will just be passed on to us in the end anyway.

Bob Wassam

 

I'm holding out for straight hydrogen conversion...the twin cylinders on the roof will look like the USS Enterprise!

As noted the fuel formulas have caused trouble in the older fuel line systems, I recall Mercury redoing everything in my outboard, some years ago........

 

That's true, but I have only recently noted the stickers stating that, on pumps here.........

 

Sounds like urban legend. 10% blends have been in use around here for over 10 years. Never even heard of a rumor about a problem. In fact, the blend actually helped carbureted motors by dramatically reducing varnish buildup.

Dave

 

As someone else stated, ethanol has less energy per unit and it's use actually reduces mileage. What's more, any vehicle not engineered to run on E85 simply won't run well on it and won't run at all shortly.

Dave

 

whew! Thanks!

Yea, we burn thru it too fast for that "moisture buildup" to be much of a factor....

 

Don't forget to consider how much ethanol is consumed by us in the form of beverages every day, produced mostly by natural processes. Granted it may be more expensive to produce, but it is a source of energy that is more readily produced. Even if it does take more energy to produce it then it releases when burned, you have to take into account where that energy is coming from, a renewable resource, not a non-renewable one.