Um... what? The ad mentions the title issue, but it is still the first one under $120K. There will be more. A lot more.
The photo shows the plastic around around the knobs and switches to be all messed up. It's probably a flood car.
Yes, that is the conclusion I reached. It has zero bearing on the fact that it's the first one under $120K. They are all headed that way, as over forty years of following 2+2's has taught me.
Okay. I have resisted commenting on this thread until now as I have a dog in this particular fight. With that out of the way... Yes, it's a Ferrari V12 2+2, like all those which have gone before it. So logic suggests that it will go the same way as the others. However... It's different this time (oldest excuse in the book!) Why is it different? This is the first 4wd Ferrari. It's also the first proper 4 seater, it's not a 2+2. And finally, the hatch gives it a practicality which all the other 2+2's have lacked. And it may be heavy but the engine and chassis engineering have given it a sportiness which the earlier 2+2s haven't had. I think that the modern cars - including the 2 seaters have reached such a high performance level that, on public roads, the difference between the FF and the 2 seaters is only down to the mass of the car. And where the FF really wins is on the refinement and comfort. It has a Jekyll and Hyde personality. It's a *****cat when trundling along in auto and it's a beast when you're on it. I don't think the earlier 2+2s really achieved that. The fact that the FF seems to be the 'most driven' Ferrari in history bears testament to its usability and hence, its desirability. Finally, I don't really see FF values falling much below 612 values. Given the choice between a high mile FF and a low mile 612, it should be obvious that the FF is a better buy to drive. 'Investment' may be another matter, but to drive, the FF wins every time.
One of the reasons the 612 has been relatively strong in resale for a 2+2 is because it's so much more beautiful than the FF. (Half joking). There is also a huge difference between the early cars and the OTO's. Low miles OTO's are still fairly strong in asking price - trading for around $150K - and I would much rather have one of those than an FF I think (But I'm not positive!). But again, I think the OTO's will come down a bit more. Wait until they are all over ten years old. Middle of the road 612's are trading for about $100K now, which is a serious bargain. A manual is on AutoTrader right now with an ask of $299K! That's the power of manual cars right now, and a completely separate issue from 2+2's in general. But still interesting. Yes, the FF is a cool AWD V12 2+2, but many simply don't like the looks of it. I like the FF despite its funky looks, and I am having a genuinely hard time deciding between it and a 612. Remember, the FF is still a current platform. Wait until the Lusso bows out. The V12 Lussos will then become more desirable than the equivalent FF! More downward pressure. I've heard, "this time it will be different" since the 456. Why? Because it was so much more awesome and beautiful than the old 400/412's. Made no difference. Awesome and beautiful 456M's could be had seven years ago for under $50K. Only now are they starting to firm up, and the newest ones are fifteen years old. Circa $100K FF's are coming, so I'm taking my time making up my mind.
Yes, but the FF is also generally viewed as ugly. Well, its not ugly per se compared to normal cars, but it's ugly when you consider it's a Ferrari. Definitely worse looking than a 612 IMO. Also, it has to compete with high-end cars that are also practical, high performance, and *new*. It's not about FF vs 612, it's about FF vs anything in the niche. Porsche is still making Panameras and has no plans to stop, so just how long will that practicality of the FF really hold up against a 2025 Panamera that blows it anyway in every way possible except for a V12 sound? Mission-E? I'm pretty sure I'd take a Mission-E in a heartbeat over an FF. People with 6 figures to spend on something like an FF probably also have all their practical needs met by Range Rover or Cayenne or whatever. Heck, the Lamborghini Urus is getting great reviews too. These wealthy people will get their Ferrari fix with mid-engine sport cars more often than not, and find what the FF offers elsewhere. FF's aren't highly sought after or collectible, thus used ones do in fact have to compete with new cars much more on fundamentals. The fundamentals say the FF is going to be super outdated very soon and offer very little over new cars that are at the same price or less. I'd say FF's will continue down down down. That's not a bad or weird thing though. It makes a lot of sense for the FF to keep going down IMO. Will it go below a 612? I have no no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised given the production numbers and the design that isn't so hot.
I'd say the low production numbers are indicative of weak demand in general and not helpful in the sense that it's hard to come by.
But the 612 numbers would have to be compared with the FF plus Lusso (Not including Lusso T, which is another story entirely). The production run for that platform isn't finished.
612 for in production about 7 years I think, and the FF about 5. Also consider that the global market for Ferrari and exotics has grown considerably. China wasn't the same market back in the early 2000s when the 612 debuted.
My point was that the 612 and OTO are in the same relationship as the FF and Lusso. We won't know the total for the platform until the Lusso production ends. It will likely be higher than the 612 production. A lot also depends on the reception of the FUV and whether the rumors of a more traditional 2+2 GT come true. 612's are relatively solid because some people think it was the last of the 2+2 GT's. I don't think that's the case. I also think people are making too big a deal about the last of the NA V12's. If the hybrids are better, they'll be more desirable to most.
I have been reading this thread closely because I have a strong feeling that I am going to get a FF instead of a Lusso for both price and sound difference. Sometimes I still have hard time distinguishing the front views of two cars. I felt that pininfarina has done a great job making FF classy, just like with 458, and Ferrari itself makes Lusso and 488 looks more modernized that will appeal to mass public faster but with shorter duration. Hence, I still have hard time to justify the nearly 100K difference for a 2017 Lusso vs a 2016 FF (assuming the rest options are comparative). I don't have garage queen, no matter what marques it is. All I want is to not feel guilty anymore with my kids not in a ferrari with me, and I can downshift and listen to a V12 driving to Vegas. I am not too crazy right?
For anyone looking: https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/740215577/overview?aff=share_text Good price for a well equipped car with some miles. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I havent driven a Lusso. I prefer the FF’s looks, which are obviously very subjective. I DID drive the FF tonight and yet again was reminded how much I love the car!
I have many miles in FF and now Lusso. Lusso is far ahead as a driver’s car IMO and is a better all-round package, FF at US used prices seems just about the best value in the whole of the motoring world. Why is the Lusso better? On-limit handling is much more agile and natural feeling due to rws, the sound is nicer (can’t see where all the FF sounds nicer comments come from, it’s not true for my ears) and the interior ambience and quality is a big step on from the FF. I also much prefer the appearance of the Lusso, better resolved and still a very distinctive car due to the shooting brake shape - even if the FF is more unique and not an obvious design at all. That counts against it for me though. As always, appearance is the most subjective item in this very subjective list. Never driven a Lusso T so don’t know about that but a big part of the fun is that V12 - I can easily believe the T handles better with less weight in the nose but if outright handling is the main consideration a 488 would doubtless be significantly better again.
The title of this thread was "FF Values, what's going on" and the answer is................ nothing. You can't use a savaged title, flooded, or bad year/color/optioned example as the "market" for the FF. Any 2014 or newer with the pano roof with great options and great color combo will never go below $150K, ever. Just find me an example. I keep seeing posters use these obvious black sheep to argue a failing value on the FF. Ain't happen' Not that it really matters, since it is such an amazing car!
