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first abuse of patriot act from Sept 11 attacks???

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by JimSchad, Nov 6, 2003.

  1. JimSchad

    JimSchad Guest

  2. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    Did you really think that Asscroft and crew wouldn't use this new tool? We lose our freedoms one by one, when we get scared. 9/11 was god sent to the consersatives, it allowed them another little tool to make sure that we behave as they tell us.

    Art
     
  3. JimSchad

    JimSchad Guest

    art it passed the house with a 357-66 vote and the Senate with a 98-1 vote. Only 1 Dem voted Nea. Here is a link and the vote list.

    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00313

    Akaka (D-HI), Yea
    Allard (R-CO), Yea
    Allen (R-VA), Yea
    Baucus (D-MT), Yea
    Bayh (D-IN), Yea
    Bennett (R-UT), Yea
    Biden (D-DE), Yea
    Bingaman (D-NM), Yea
    Bond (R-MO), Yea
    Boxer (D-CA), Yea
    Breaux (D-LA), Yea
    Brownback (R-KS), Yea
    Bunning (R-KY), Yea
    Burns (R-MT), Yea
    Byrd (D-WV), Yea
    Campbell (R-CO), Yea
    Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
    Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
    Carper (D-DE), Yea
    Chafee (R-RI), Yea
    Cleland (D-GA), Yea
    Clinton (D-NY), Yea
    Cochran (R-MS), Yea
    Collins (R-ME), Yea
    Conrad (D-ND), Yea
    Corzine (D-NJ), Yea
    Craig (R-ID), Yea
    Crapo (R-ID), Yea
    Daschle (D-SD), Yea
    Dayton (D-MN), Yea
    DeWine (R-OH), Yea
    Dodd (D-CT), Yea
    Domenici (R-NM), Yea
    Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
    Durbin (D-IL), Yea
    Edwards (D-NC), Yea
    Ensign (R-NV), Yea
    Enzi (R-WY), Yea
    Feingold (D-WI), Nay
    Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
    Fitzgerald (R-IL), Yea
    Frist (R-TN), Yea
    Graham (D-FL), Yea
    Gramm (R-TX), Yea
    Grassley (R-IA), Yea
    Gregg (R-NH), Yea
    Hagel (R-NE), Yea
    Harkin (D-IA), Yea
    Hatch (R-UT), Yea
    Helms (R-NC), Yea
    Hollings (D-SC), Yea
    Hutchinson (R-AR), Yea
    Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
    Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
    Inouye (D-HI), Yea
    Jeffords (I-VT), Yea
    Johnson (D-SD), Yea
    Kennedy (D-MA), Yea
    Kerry (D-MA), Yea
    Kohl (D-WI), Yea
    Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
    Landrieu (D-LA), Not Voting
    Leahy (D-VT), Yea
    Levin (D-MI), Yea
    Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
    Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
    Lott (R-MS), Yea
    Lugar (R-IN), Yea
    McCain (R-AZ), Yea
    McConnell (R-KY), Yea
    Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
    Miller (D-GA), Yea
    Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
    Murray (D-WA), Yea
    Nelson (D-FL), Yea
    Nelson (D-NE), Yea
    Nickles (R-OK), Yea
    Reed (D-RI), Yea
    Reid (D-NV), Yea
    Roberts (R-KS), Yea
    Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
    Santorum (R-PA), Yea
    Sarbanes (D-MD), Yea
    Schumer (D-NY), Yea
    Sessions (R-AL), Yea
    Shelby (R-AL), Yea
    Smith (R-NH), Yea
    Smith (R-OR), Yea
    Snowe (R-ME), Yea
    Specter (R-PA), Yea
    Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
    Stevens (R-AK), Yea
    Thomas (R-WY), Yea
    Thompson (R-TN), Yea
    Thurmond (R-SC), Yea
    Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea
    Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
    Warner (R-VA), Yea
    Wellstone (D-MN), Yea
    Wyden (D-OR), Yea
     
  4. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    It was painfully obvious from the beginning that an act like this has far-reaching powers, most of which I had expected to be abused by the charlatans we call politicians.

    --Dan
     
  5. t88power

    t88power Formula 3

    Feb 19, 2001
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    Ernesto
    In other words, if it is used to catch criminals it is being abused? LOL... You'd rather see the people breaking the law go free? If you are not breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about.

    Ernesto
     
  6. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    When the Patriot Act was passed I asked several liberals on various US political message boards to name and provide evidence of actual situations were in times of US national crisis...as in war, etc......that civil rights were revoked and then "not re-instated" after the cause had passed.

    No one was "able or willing" to name any set of such circumstances.

    "The sky is falling...the sky is falling...."
     
  7. mr. green

    mr. green Formula Junior
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    Oct 31, 2003
    263
    Say hello to the new 3rd Reich!
     
  8. Artherd

    Artherd F1 Veteran

    Jun 19, 2002
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    Ben Cannon
    Ernesto "You'd rather see the people breaking the law go free?"

    Yes, I most certinly would. Considering that the alternative is the encumbiment of freedom.

    While it may be true for now that 'if you aren't breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about', the power the Patriot Act gives is just too easy to abuse.

    Best!
    Ben
     
  9. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

    Apr 15, 2001
    1,811
    FL, OR
    "Ernesto "You'd rather see the people breaking the law go free?"

    Yes, I most certinly would. Considering that the alternative is the encumbiment of freedom."

    Ben, thats easy to say but would you really feel that way if the killer/rapist of your wife or daughter walked free due to some minor police clerical mistake or if a second 9/11 happened because the police were restricted from listening in on some terrorist group planning it
    in a Mosque?

    Our constitution is the best rule of law the world has ever had but its not a suicide pact. Get real.
     
  10. t88power

    t88power Formula 3

    Feb 19, 2001
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    Ernesto
    I can't believe this. You break the law. Authorities catch you via the Patriot Act. You go to jail. Oh, but the perp lost his freedom! LOL... Too easy to abuse against who? Criminals? For all I care, they can use it to its maximum interpretation to catch criminals, etc. I would gladly give up a little privacy so that criminal are taken off the street. The greater good. Sacrifice.

    Ernesto
     
  11. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
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    I'm surprised it took so long. I think the Feds hate the Constitution & Bill of Rights. You know that if these guys were around in 1776 we would have had a totalitariian dictatorship. Thankfully the Constitutions framers were extremely advanced indiviuduals, nothing like the politicians we have today
     
  12. Modificata

    Modificata F1 Rookie
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    Apr 27, 2003
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    I always thought the US were promoters of freedom. In actual fact there is probably more control on US citizens than in places in the "foriegn lands".
     
  13. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    You better believe it, Down in Argentina, you can do pretty much whatever you like. Want to do 160 mph down the highway, go out of the city & have fun Lots of other fun stuff to do too :)

    BTW George Soros just gave the Dems $10-15M to beat Bush who he says reminds him of the Germans & Russians from his youth in Hungary
     
  14. JimSchad

    JimSchad Guest

    Ernesto,
    I think what worries people is the abuse of the power. For example...say you and me are business competitors, but I have powerful political connections. I want you out of biz or at least bogged down or your name smeared. I pull strings and suddenly you are the center of an investigation or are being spied on via the Patriot Act. I make your life hell all for the sake of money not freedom or safety.
     
  15. t88power

    t88power Formula 3

    Feb 19, 2001
    2,396
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    Ernesto
    Jim, you can do that anyway. The Patriot Act doesnt make this more or less likely. If you have political connections of that degree, then there are a million ways to put the hurt on your partner, from IRS to FBI, etc etc. That is not a good reason. The Patriot Act is used to catch terrorists. If it is also used to catch other criminals, GOOD FOR THEM! I'm all for catching criminals and using powerful tools to catch them. The bottom line is that people are complaining about losing freedoms, when they should be complaining about all the criminals and terrorists out there getting away with murder.

    Ernesto
     
  16. Artherd

    Artherd F1 Veteran

    Jun 19, 2002
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    Ben Cannon
    “Those whom would give up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security deserve neither"

    Benjamin Franklin.

    There is a reason a police officer cannot just detain me and search my vehicle for no reason at all. If they could, we would live in a police state.

    Ernesto- no one obeys the law all of the time. I probally break it daily in one fassion or another. The Patrioit Act destroys the checks and ballances that give the police/gov't the limited ability to investigate and punish criminals.

    Just because I'm fuking Iranian should NOT mean I'm under so much scruitney that they put me away for rolling through the stop sign at the top of my hill at 5mph.

    And lastly, yes, I would perfer a rapist or three to go free, as opposed to living in a police state (where the rapists are still there, and actually sanctioned by the governing bodies...) And if it happened to a family member of mine, well, the police would be involved, but I'd be telling them where to find the various pieces of his body.

    Best!
    Ben.
     
  17. randall

    randall Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Randall

    Hate to break it to you, but majority of americans don't want to put themselves at risk of punishments, even if that would let them live in a safer better country. Would you be willing to support a law that say if you have a BAC of .10 or higher the car you're driving (regardless of owner, unless it's stolen) is impounded and all the cars registered to your name are impounded and auctioned off? Most people aren't for that idea, but it would make the roads safer. What about physical punishments for crimes against others, ie. caning for vandilism, drunk driving, theft, etc? Most americans won't agree to that either.

    I understand the complaint with the patriot act, that it can extend to anyone, not just suspected terrorists. I'm glad there is a deadline in 2005 for it, hopefully it goes away then.
     
  18. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

    Apr 15, 2001
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    Has anyone here actually read the Patriot act?
     
  19. Modificata

    Modificata F1 Rookie
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    Andy Rasool

    I tell you it scares the ****e outta me. If someone today called up the police and said you had links with a terrorist org you could be locked up, lose all your rights, until you can prove otherwise! You might think this is extreame but I know someone whose house was turned upside because some racist guys in the neighborhood told that to the police. The police came round put him and his family in jail, stripped his house and found absolutely nothing. Nothing to find.

    Then they left his house with all carpets and floorboards pulled up, cupboard contents all over the place, and not even an offer of any help or compensation to help pull their lives back together again.

    Hail Communism I say!!!
     
  20. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I love Miami but I may be spending more time in BA or Italia after law school

    Lawyers, Is due process dying ?
     
  21. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    Ben: when did you become iranian? :D

    --Dan
     
  22. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Argentina is great, no worries about sexual harrasment, you can harras all day at will :) No Cops bothering you, On the road they want some $ everynow & then, thats why I dont even own a car there, just hire a car & driver everywhere. You have to get something that looks plain outside cus its not the safest place. But you can do a lot of stuff that you could never get aaway with here
     
  23. Artherd

    Artherd F1 Veteran

    Jun 19, 2002
    6,587
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    Ben Cannon
    oops, meant to say "hypothetically, I'm Iranian" ;P

    Besides, it sounds cooler than "1/4 Italian, 1/4 german, 1/2 Miscalaneous White Guy Mish-Mash"

    Best!
    Ben.
     
  24. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

    Apr 15, 2001
    1,811
    FL, OR
    "Argentina is great"

    I admit I have never been there but isn't it an economic and social basket case? Didn't tens of thousands "vanish" and were presumably murdered by the gov? It was once a rich, proud and respected country but wasn't that all destroyed and is now an example of how not to run a country?
     
  25. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Lou, well its far from perfect. The economy is crawliong out of the sub-basement, corruption & drugs are still rampant, kidnappings have dropped a bit I hope, Better off than Columbia, Venezuela, or Iraq, probably not as healthy as MX.

    The 70s were pretty bad as the Nazis that relocated to Argentina during & after WW2 reached their peak in govt influence & , well Peron was a facist way back in the 50s but yes the 70s were real bad. The 90s were really good though until the 99 or so. then the economy went into freefall. and yes it is a great example of how not to run a country

    But if you want to have fun, its a very good place indeed :) just be careful, stay low key, dont flash cash & a bodyguard is a good idea
     

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