First service report - 91 348 13,000 miles

Good Evening Gentleman,
Just got her back from Gran Turismo. Doesn't look good. The RF cam seal is leaking. It just had the 30k service 300 mile ago. Apparently the wrong silicon was used? That will require a engine out. Also the oxygen sensor was faulty as well as the oil temp gauge. Lastly even though the car only has 13,000 miles on her she needs a NEW CLUTCH.
Now the good news. Formally, Los Gatos Ferrari now Silicon Auto Valley Group where I bought the car confirmed that that should not have been let out like that and they will cover the cost. I will more than likely take the hit on the clutch however. Gran Turismo said I think somewhere around $2,000ish if the flywheel isn't damage yet foir the clutch.
I figure a week in the shop beginning the new year and I am ready for a long while....fingures crossed, knock on wood.
Should the dealer I bought it from be responsible for some of the clutch as well? They did say it was all in perfect working order. I think "turn key" was what they said???

 

A couple of things, just my own personal opinions:

If your car had an "engine out" service 300 miles ago, then there could be no reasonable excuse for it having a worn out clutch, unless someone specifically declined to have it replaced. With the engine out, it would take less than an hour to put a new clutch in. Therefore:
- Either they "dogged it" to save a few bucks, and knew the clutch was bad.
- Or the clutch ISN'T bad.
- Or the driver who transported your car to you abused the clutch loading the car onto the trailer. Did his truck have a hydraulic lift, or ramps?

If there is a question about the condition of the clutch, sure, have them pull it out. It's about a one hour job at the dealership. Then have them check the clutch for wear, heat damage, and fluid leaks. If it's OK, you pay them for the R&R. If there is a problem, then obviously it isn't your fault, and you need to start making a stink about who is going to pay for it. $2000 is probably what they charge for a new clutch (just the disc and pressure plate), but let's just say that there is a substantial profit margin in that. You want to make SURE that the flywheel is OK, as it's going to add another $2500 or so to the bill.

If any of the clutch components do need to be replaced, make sure you keep the old parts, and get photographic evidence of any seal leakage before it is cleaned up and repaired.

If it has a leaking cam seal right after a major service, then obviously the dealer who did the service should pay to make it right, even if it means pulling the engine again.

If an OXY sensor is defective, it should have been caught during the major service, and it should be replaced now. Easy job.

I find it very, very hard to believe that your oil temperature gauge is defective, but it's possible. Personally, I'd ask to have the old part returned, just to make sure they aren't "throwing parts at it". Once you have a working gauge in the car, it would take about two minutes to plug the old gauge back in to verify its condition. I'm sure they're not cheap.

Finally, the phrase "turn key" isn't going to be a substitute for a warranty. If you could jump into the car and drive it when it arrived, then that pretty much makes it a "turn key" example. It doesn't mean that everything is in new condition and in perfect working order. If you signed an "AS IS" document and there is no mention of a warranty in the contract, then you will have to depend upon their good will for any corrections after the fact.

Just out of curiosity, you said that the wheels had been swapped back into their correct positions - did you check to see if the car has tires with directional tread, and if they are running in the correct direction?

I think your 348 is going to be fine. It's certainly a great looking car, and your shop should certainly be capable of handling the problems. Hopefully the selling dealer will work with you on the cost. Keep us informed, and I hope you will be enjoying it soon!

 

Since the engine will be coming out, If I were in your shoes,I would just replace the clutch, you will sleep easier at night

 

Silicon Valley auto group, where I bought the car, said they will pay for anything that wasn't done properly with the 30k service. Gran Turismo next week is pulling the motor. I am getting the new clutch at that time as well. I paid like $300 to get the oxygen sensor fixed and ordered the oil temp sensor.
The salesman told me the clutch was good and the everything in the car was perfect? "No issues" In actually the clutch was wasted, oil temp gauge didn't even work and in 100 miles the check engine bank 1-4 light came on becasue of the O2 sensor. Something I forgot to mention was that the antenna did not work. Not that I ever listen to the stereo but a goofing looking antenna stuck in the up position needed to be fixed. That cost like $100 something.
Now Silicon auto group, Jack Gordon, says that the major service carries a 1 year warrenty. I did sign as is no warrenty. However the service work is still covered. The car itself from the dealer was not.
I just wantr them to pay for the faulty work that was perfomed and I will eat the clutch I guess???? To answer your question, Innercity trasported the car and it was a hydrolic lift truck. Thanks for your imput Jeff

 

They are correct now. Pirelli P-zeros brand new

 

There was nothing in the service records regarding the bad or worn clutch??? I have driven it 300 miles but assure you I am not a complete jack ass and actual was suprised out how easy the clutch is to work considering the difference with Porche I used to drive. How guys go through a clutch in 13,000 I don't know. Obviously I have alot to learn but should a clutch last for at least 20,000 miles in a 348???

 

Clutches seem to be a weak point on Ferraris. I have seen people get less than 10,000 miles, and over 100,000. And this is with old and newer Ferraris...So there is no "pat" answer.

 

I have personally replaced the single-disc clutch in my own 348, in my own garage, without the benefit of a lift, using ordinary hand tools. I paid $713 for a new disc and pressure plate. The job took me about 3 hours. An experienced tech could do it in less than 2 hours. If they are charging $2000 just to replace the disc and plate, that leaves about $1250 for labor. Hmmmm. That works out to something above $600/hour, doesn't it? Hmmmmm.

Just so you go into this as an informed customer, not to be a troublemaker, ask them specifically what you get for your $2000. Are the disc and pressure plate new, not rebuilt? Does that include replacement of any of the seals on the input shaft or throwout bearing? Does it include resurfacing the flywheel, or repacking the grease in it? Does it include new donuts for the exhaust system, if they remove the mufflers?

They can charge whatever they want. I'm just telling you that if they charge $2000 just for the parts and labor to replace the disc and pressure plate, it's a bigtime RIP!

 

I bought my '97 F355 with 6200 mi on it with almost bald tires on the rear. I knew the clutch would be a concern. The tip-off was - there was carbon on the vent holes of the t-axle housing I had the clutch/flywheel/pressure plate replaced when I did the 30K at Tonkin. Excluding labor, Flywheel = $3200, Pressure plate = $1200, and the Clutch itself = $800 = $5200! Just so you don't get blindsided. In 20/20 hindsight - The hard carbon pitting on my flywheel and pressureplate was not so severe, that I could have had the flywheel and pressure plate ground about 0.060, and gotten by with just a new clutch, but they wouldn't have stood behind the work. I'm having those parts ground so the next time if there is one, I'll use those. You may want to take the risk. It ties up your car longer, but all you are out is the in and out labor on the clutch job.

 

Good golly! $2000 in parts alone for a disc and pressure plate on a 355! Well, my earlier post was probably misleading then, but I paid $713 for my disc and pressure plate. Looking at the receipt, I see that was in March 2000, and I had a discount, as I was working at Pete Lovely Racing at the time. I should have made that clear before I accused them of "ripping". I just tried to punch up Sodacoms site, to see what they are currently charging for 348 clutch bits, and their site wouldn't come up.

Like Dave just explained, I kept my old clutch parts for possible renewing in the future. It's an AP brand clutch, and there is no reason why the disc can't be resurfaced with new material and the plate skimmed at the machine shop.

The point of this rant was just to make sure that you were aware that the $2000 they quoted may or may not take care of whatever problem they find when they open up your clutch. If the bill for the clutch will be coming out of your pocket, it might be a shocker.

 

I am lucky in a way I guess as I assumed I would need a clutch soon anyway.I would like to think I did my homework prior to purchasing my first F-car. I searched for almost a year looking for the right car. I was aware of the issues the 348 has and am fortunate enough to have the funds to actually drive my 348, rather than have a garage queen. Assuming I don't blow the motor or something huge happen. Knock on wood.
I confimed today that the shop in California that did the 30k service will unconditionally warrenty labor for 1 year and parts for 3. Thank God! So the oil temp gauge sensor, O2 sensor, and leaking RF Cam seal will all be paid for. To fix the Cam seal Tonkin needs to remove the motor. With the motor out a new pressure plate and disk insalled, if that is all it needs,they say is $2,000 to $2,600, I think. You think that is way out of line with the engine already out????

Mike

I got the bill for lunch or dinner on our first meet in appreaciation for all your help!

 

I think if you were to ask any Ferrari dealer what they charge to replace the clutch in a 348, you would get an answer in the same range that you have been quoted. I can't argue with that.

 

I thought it might be less with the engine already out?

 

I suppose that it might save 10 or 15 minutes on a clutch job if the engine is out!

PLEASE forgive me if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that you may not be aware of the location of the clutch on your 348. It isn't located between the engine and the transmission, as it would be on most cars. You don't have to remove either the engine or the transmission to have total access to it. It's hanging off the far back end of the drivetrain, right in front of the muffler. It's inside the aluminum housing you can see from behind the car (the piece with the name "Ferrari" on the casting), right between the two exhaust outlets. You pull off the rear bumper and the muffler (quick and easy), then take off about 7 nuts and bolts, and the entire clutch assembly comes right off in your hands. Once that housing is off, you can replace the disc and pressure plate in a matter of minutes. It takes a little longer if you have the dual-disc clutch instead of the single disc, but there's really nothing to it.

 

No need to apoligize for assuming I have no idea where anything is. I have had a Hummer H1 for three yearts now and it is a high maintanence vehicle. It has taken that long for me to know where everything is and what its individual parts do. I am very Green as to the working knowledge of my 348. I compitition surf ride a stand up jet ski and after 7 years now can at last work on myself. That is just an 800cc 2 stroke! Hence the reason I more than likely seem ignorant (stupid) on this chat board. You should see my Ferrari note pad with all the notes I have taken thanks to F-chatters info. Note #52 - "Clutch Location" it in between the muffler in the silver housing, Need to remove bumper and muffler to access, says Ferrari on it" hahahhehe

Off to ride ( launch) the 20foot Winter Oregon Surf!

Happy New Year,

Mike

 

Good luck with the work, Mike. It'll be a different car when you get it back - even better than before. Make sure that you keep any of the parts that they replace or work take off during the service. They're not only educational, but the only way to prove that the work's been done (both to you and to any future owner). Hopefully your car has the single-plate version of the clutch, which is much cheaper. There's no telling which it has until they open the housing, though. Another unique joy of a hand-built vehicle.

Also, good choice on the tires. That's what I've got on my car and I really like them. Make sure you keep them inflated to the right pressures or you'll get understeer something awful!

 

What is the pressure you run in your P-Zero's? I take car in tomorrow for the new clutch and some other items. Can't wait to get her back!!!

 

Just whatever the placard inside the passenger door jamb says. I believe it's in the neighborhood of 35 psi, but the front and rear are slightly different. The sidewalls are so stiff that you don't notice low pressure when the car is just sitting there, so that's why I mention it. That and I had to juice mine up a couple of days ago, so it's fresh. Yours are probably fine right now if the tires were just put on.

Hopefully this super cold weather passes by the time you get it back so you can take it out and appreciate it!

 

Boy did I enjoy today today. Put a coulpe hundred miles on her! Clear blue in P-Town but windy. Love that sound at 4,500rpm to 7,000..can't get enough!!
Thanks for the hint on the tire pressure!

Mike

 

There's nothing better than the sound of an F-car at redline!